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Thread: Ydna L vs Ydna T distibution in South Asia

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    Ydna L vs Ydna T distibution in South Asia

    The theory of Ydna L as representing the people who founded the IVC and ydna T as proto Dravidians is popular. Is there any evidence for it? I believe the African character of South Indian crops is used for one.

    And the distribtuion of ydna L and T support it somewhat. What does everybody else thinl?


    Last edited by newtoboard; 02-21-2013 at 05:47 PM.

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    First of all, I would like to apologise for any mistakes made by commenting on this thread at this very late point in time. I agree with any potential decisions of the moderators to close down the thread or suspend me for a while (but I request the moderators not to ban me completely).

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    The theory of Ydna L as representing the people who founded the IVC and ydna T as proto Dravidians is popular. Is there any evidence for it? I believe the African character of South Indian crops is used for one.

    And the distribtuion of ydna L and T support it somewhat. What does everybody else thinl?


    I cannot claim to know anything much about the Y-DNA haplogroups but the importance of African beans and millets in the South Indian Neolithic is I think somewhat exaggerated. I don't deny at all that the African crops played (and continue to play in the arid Deccan plateau regions of Telangana, Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh at least) quite a significant role in the South Indian Ashmound Tradition but as per Dorian Q. Fuller in his 2003 paper, "African crops in prehistoric South Asia: a critical review", the known African crops of hyacinth bean, cowpea, ragi, jowar and pearl millet were at least not part of any agricultural package. (going by the consideration that any hypothetical Pre-Proto-Dravidian-speakers or Proto-Dravidian-speakers coming to eastern Indian coasts (majorly; going by the association of African crops with the T haplogroup distribution from the map you provided; but note that it is very likely that not all African crops entered by this route into India; some may have come from western regions like Gujarat) from eastern African coasts should at least have carried a cultural crop package with them; on the other hand, if you consider that the Dravidian-speakers entered India already broken up into roughly today's language groups, such as Tamil-Tulu or Telugu-Kui, etc. like it is sometimes thought, with respect to the hypotheses talking about the hypothetical entrance of these Dravidian groups from beyond northwest, then the African crop association (and the haplogroup T?) with Dravidian languages may stand.)

    Anyway, to quote Fuller,

    In summing up the available evidence, it can be seen that the adoption of crops of African origin into South Asia did not follow a simple, single trajectory. The cereals and pulses of Near Eastern origins appear to have diffused into northwestern South Asia at an early date and then further eastward and southward as a fairly coherent agricultural package. This formed a significant componenet of the subsistence economy in, for example, the Ganges valley or the northern Peninsula (FULLER 2002). In contrast, the spread of African crops was more piecemeal and selective.

    While a number of authors have in the past suggested that the adoption of African millets may have been an agricultural 'revolution' of the Late Harappan period or a critical factor in the spread of agriculture into monsoonal environments of India (e.g. HUTCHINSON 1976. POSSEHL 1980. 1986. JARRIGE 1985. MEADOW 1989. 1996), the available evidence indicates that these taxa were not adopted on a large scale on individual sites nor are they consistently in evidence over particular regions (FULLER & MADELLA 2001). Rather each of the African species appears to be locally important, or supplemental, to agricultural economies based primarily on other species. As already noted by WEBER (1993. 1998) the African millets appear largely to have been adopted on sites where there was already ample evidence for the cultivation of other summer crops, including millets and pulses of South Asian origin, as well as perhaps introduced east Asian millets such as Setaria italica. The author's own data from South Indian Neolithic sites indicates this process, as Pennisetum glaucum occurs only in small quantities through part of the stratigraphic sequence at Hallur, where all samples are dominated by Vigna radiata, Macrotyloma uniflorum, Brachiaria ramosa type and Setaria verticillata type. At the site of Sanganakallu, Lablab purpureus occurs in large quantities, often dominating samples, but only in the second (later) half of the stratigraphic sequence, whereas the same four taxa at Hallur are found throughout the sequence.
    Also, according to the maps you provided, haplogroup T seems to be pretty much limited to the Odisha-Northern Andhra area, and don't we expect T to be found throughout South India in significant quantities if it was carried by Pre-Proto-Dravidian- or Proto-Dravidian-speaking males, seeing the ubiquity of Dravidian languages in south India? If I'm wrong here, please try to correct me.

    Also, linguistically speaking, no known language family both within and without South Asia is thought of as related to the Dravidian family of languages at this point. Links to Elamite, Uralic, Niger-Congo languages and all such are all unaccepted positions in the mainstream comparative linguistics. This does not of course imply that Dravidian is native to south India or even the broader South Asia; just that no languages possibly related to Dravidian in the prehistoric times seem to be found now. So, any evidence from fields such as genetics and other non-linguistic disciplines should be of a particularly overwhelmingly critical nature to hope to resolve the Dravidian problem to satisfaction.

    (This implies that even the Southern Neolithic Ashmound Tradition (2800 BC - 1000 BC) cannot be conclusively attached to the speakers of Dravidian languages. However, in the case of the Ashmound Tradition, corresponding place names are of a Dravidian linguistic nature, so that may count as a weak evidence; though place name evidence is of course not clinching, especially in India where renaming of such entities as river names and place names also seems to be quite widespread, for example in possible sanskritisation of several river names such as Pennar --> Pinakini, Palar --> Kshiranadi, etc.)

    By the way, Dorian Q Fuller et al. in their 2001 paper, "Southern Neolithic Cultivation Systems: A Reconstruction based on Archaeobotanical Evidence" consider Setaria verticillata, Macrotyloma uniflorum, Brachiaria ramosa, Vigna radiata to be the components of the Southern Neolithic native crop package. Mactrotyloma uniflorum (horsegram) and Vigna radiata (green gram or mung bean) continue to play important roles along with the African millets in south Indian cuisine, especially very much so in Telugu cuisine.

    (And, though Fuller et al. consider likely the possibility that green gram may have been domesticated natively somewhere in the Eastern ghats region close to the Southern Neolithic, it's domestication appears to me to have been archaeologically documented (please correct me if I am wrong) in Iran, according to the wikipedia page for green gram. So, if anything, it appears it is Iran which may even be remotely connected with these Southern Neolithic people who cultivated this particular bean as part of their native crop package, going by this method of seeing connections between languages and cultural crop packages.)
    Last edited by anthroin; 10-07-2017 at 10:11 PM.

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    Just to let everyone know...........The T -ydna map above is created by AndresT ( who sometimes writes in this site) and he states that the map reflects only modern samples and it is too old.........there is no ancient, medieval, renaissance or industrial period of samples on it. You cannot gather any information of origin or anything else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Just to let everyone know...........The T -ydna map above is created by AndresT ( who sometimes writes in this site) and he states that the map reflects only modern samples and it is too old.........there is no ancient, medieval, renaissance or industrial period of samples on it. You cannot gather any information of origin or anything else.
    So can it be considered that the route by which the T people came to India is unclear from the available evidence or are there any indications (from up-to-date evidence that includes aDNA, etc.) about when, from where and how these T people came to India to be having the rather peculiar modern distribution there? (TMRCAs of Indian Ts I remember reading to be quite low (going back to 5000-4000 years ago?) but I am not sure.)

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