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Thread: 11 At DYS 439 R1b1a2

  1. #1
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    11 At DYS 439 R1b1a2

    Is it rare to have 11 at 439 in R1b1a2? some one did tell me this but the post went down with the old dna forum and I cant remember what was said.

    The reason I ask is my husband is adopted and has a match with the surname Bradley who tested 37 markers exact match at 25 markers 3 steps at 37 markers, they both have 11 at 439 which was discussed on the old dna forum. (I will call him Bradley 1)

    This week another match has turned up 3 steps at 67 markers exact match at 25 also named Bradley am I right in thinking 11 at 439 falls within the exact 25 markers? (I will call him Bradley 2)

    I have been in contact with Bradley 1, he matches Bradley 2 at 2 steps, both Bradley`s come from the same area Rutherford County North Carolina.

    Anthony kit no. 177578 and Bradley 1 kit no.167196 are both in the Bradley surname project.

    I looked at the R1b1s in the surname project they all had 12 or 13 at 439.

    I have e.mailed Bradley 2 as yet no reply.

    I am thinking this is most likely Anthonys biological surname as his father did come from America.

    Hope I have explained myself ok and not got my words in a twist

    Basque
    Last edited by basque; 02-22-2013 at 06:18 PM.
    Me: Susan Cotton Ackroyd mito hg V10b2. Gedmatch: DT6812170 testing companies FTDNA: 23&me: Living DNA

    My dad Maurice Arthur Cotton Y-DNA I-L1228. L1227-L1228+L623-L801-CTS9183- Mito hg V Gedmatch: XL1021420 testing company FTDNA

    My cousin William Bainbridge Y DNA R-U150 subclade R-Z150 Mito hg H3g1 Gedmatch:TX8645666 testing company Living DNA

    Yorkshire, Lancashire, Birmingham Warwickshire, Worcestershire, London, Denmark, Cumbria, Scotland

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  2. #2
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    Having 11 at DYS439 in R1b is off-modal. I would consider it uncommon, but not rare.

    DYS439 falls within the first 12 STRs, as reported by FamilyTreeDNA.

    Click here to see R1b STR distributions (Sample: 427 67-marker FTDNA entries)

    Leo Little gives 22% of R1b have DYS 439 = 11.

    Click here to see his table of Y-STR Allele Frequencies for haplogroups listed in ysearch and public projects.

    Clinton P
    FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Clinton P For This Useful Post:

     basque (02-22-2013)

  4. #3
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    Clinton P.,
    I hope Basque found your reply educational. I did. I am new to this and have a lot to learn. Leo Little's Table of Y-STR Allele Frequencies helped me understand more about my results.

    I am R-DF21 with the following off modal values, with (frequencies):

    DYS439 = 11 (.22)
    DYS460 = 10 (.19)
    CDYa = 35 (.14)
    DYS406s1 = 8 (.00)
    DYS557 = 17 (.16)
    DYS481 = 24 (.06)
    DYS572 = 10 (.08)

    At 67 markers I lose all matches except one (unfortunely they have request privacy)

    Your reply was very educational.
    Thank You,
    Sealgair

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     Clinton P (02-22-2013)

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    STRs with a red background on the Y-DNA Results page

    I should also mention that DYS439 is a 'fast moving marker'.

    Here's what FTDNA has to say about fast moving markers:

    "The current estimate by the Anthropological community of the mutation rate of Y
    chromosomal markers used for genealogy is .002, which means that 1 mutation is
    expected to occur 1 time, per marker, every 500 generations. While this number
    may be accurate for unrelated males within a population it appears to understate
    the actual mutation rate when comparisons are made from within a family.
    Therefore we highlight markers which appear to be more volatile in red, as you
    can see when you click the GENERATE page from within your GAP. The volatility
    rate of these markers hasn't been established. We believe that a standard rate
    of change, across the entire panel, is not likely either.

    If you have 2 people who match, exactly, except on a single marker and that
    marker is one that is highlighted in RED within your surname group then the
    current estimate of distance between 2 people are related is probably
    overstated, and they are more closely related than could be assumed by the
    distance suggested by a standard single marker deviation.

    A comprehensive evaluation of marker by marker volatility rates is currently
    being organized by the Molecular Lab for Science and Evolution at the University
    of Arizona and FTDNA surname groups with verified documented genealogies will be
    able to participate in this study which began during August 2003."

    Clinton P
    FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

  7. #5
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    Clinton P

    Thank you the info was very educational I understand a lot more now, I will make it my mission to learn more.

    basque
    Me: Susan Cotton Ackroyd mito hg V10b2. Gedmatch: DT6812170 testing companies FTDNA: 23&me: Living DNA

    My dad Maurice Arthur Cotton Y-DNA I-L1228. L1227-L1228+L623-L801-CTS9183- Mito hg V Gedmatch: XL1021420 testing company FTDNA

    My cousin William Bainbridge Y DNA R-U150 subclade R-Z150 Mito hg H3g1 Gedmatch:TX8645666 testing company Living DNA

    Yorkshire, Lancashire, Birmingham Warwickshire, Worcestershire, London, Denmark, Cumbria, Scotland

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     Clinton P (02-22-2013)

  9. #6
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    The current mutation rate for DYS439 is 0.00477.

    Which means that 1 mutation is expected to occur 1 time, for this marker, every 210 generations.

    If you assume 1 generation is about 30 years, that equates to about 6,290 years.

    Clinton P
    FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Clinton P For This Useful Post:

     basque (02-23-2013)

  11. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton P View Post
    The current mutation rate for DYS439 is 0.00477.

    Which means that 1 mutation is expected to occur 1 time, for this marker, every 210 generations.

    If you assume 1 generation is about 30 years, that equates to about 6,290 years.

    Clinton P
    Thanks Clinton

    I have asked Bradley 2 to e.mail me a copy of his 67 markers so I can see which 3 markers they mismatch on. Is a match at 3 steps on 67 markers a good match or does it depend on which marker`s they mismatch on

    Y search is still down so Bradley 2 wont be able to load his marker`s into the database.

    basque
    Me: Susan Cotton Ackroyd mito hg V10b2. Gedmatch: DT6812170 testing companies FTDNA: 23&me: Living DNA

    My dad Maurice Arthur Cotton Y-DNA I-L1228. L1227-L1228+L623-L801-CTS9183- Mito hg V Gedmatch: XL1021420 testing company FTDNA

    My cousin William Bainbridge Y DNA R-U150 subclade R-Z150 Mito hg H3g1 Gedmatch:TX8645666 testing company Living DNA

    Yorkshire, Lancashire, Birmingham Warwickshire, Worcestershire, London, Denmark, Cumbria, Scotland

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  12. #8
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    When you have Bradley2's haplotype, plug all your haplotypes in to Dean McGee's Y-DNA Comparison Utility, FTDNA Mode.

    Click here to go to Dean McGee's utility.

    This should give you all the answers you need.

    Clinton P
    FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

  13. #9
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    OK, I got curious. Here's what I get using Infinite allele mutation model, McDonald Mutation Rates, and 95% Probability.

    You may want to play about using different variables to see what answers you get.

    Probability is 95% that the TMRCA (between FamilyTreeDNA kit #'s 177578 and 267612) is no longer than 660 years.

    The results are in pink, which means that the two haplotypes are possibly related (green is related, yellow is probably related).

    With the same surname, I would say they are 'probably related'.

    Clinton P
    FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Clinton P For This Useful Post:

     basque (02-26-2013)

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton P View Post
    OK, I got curious. Here's what I get using Infinite allele mutation model, McDonald Mutation Rates, and 95% Probability.

    You may want to play about using different variables to see what answers you get.

    Probability is 95% that the TMRCA (between FamilyTreeDNA kit #'s 177578 and 267612) is no longer than 660 years.

    The results are in pink, which means that the two haplotypes are possibly related (green is related, yellow is probably related).

    With the same surname, I would say they are 'probably related'.

    Clinton P
    Clinton P

    Kit no.267612 is the Bradley 2 match. I just checked the surname project and there he was. he has also just sent me a copy of his Y markers.

    Thanks for being curious

    basque
    Me: Susan Cotton Ackroyd mito hg V10b2. Gedmatch: DT6812170 testing companies FTDNA: 23&me: Living DNA

    My dad Maurice Arthur Cotton Y-DNA I-L1228. L1227-L1228+L623-L801-CTS9183- Mito hg V Gedmatch: XL1021420 testing company FTDNA

    My cousin William Bainbridge Y DNA R-U150 subclade R-Z150 Mito hg H3g1 Gedmatch:TX8645666 testing company Living DNA

    Yorkshire, Lancashire, Birmingham Warwickshire, Worcestershire, London, Denmark, Cumbria, Scotland

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