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Thread: THE descendants of Alans, R1a

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    THE descendants of Alans, R1a

    In this article about Alans of Tokhtamysh, R1a-CTS1806.

    In 2015 by the EН Project "Suyun", have been tested men from representatives of clans Ayle, Qir-Qangli, Asili-Qobau and Ithel-Elan residing in the Republic Bashkortostan (RB, Tuymazinsky district). All tested men from this expedition were with haplogroup R1b and R1a..
    Look at here. Page 188.

    https://www.academia.edu/23883020/BE...2016_P.165-396
    Last edited by Bulat; 03-31-2016 at 09:33 PM.
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    http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_02_11_30_2015.pdf

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    How do we know these gentlemen are actually descended from "Alans". ?
    Keep in mind , many different groups were called Alans in antiquity, most of which were in pannonia and the Caucasus, not Proto-Bashkiria
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 03-31-2016 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    How do we know these gentlemen are actually descended from "Alans". ?
    Keep in mind , many different groups were called Alans in antiquity, most of which were in pannonia and the Caucasus, not Proto-Bashkiria

    In historical documents indicated that the Alans served in the Tokhtamysh army. In Bashkiria remained and descendants - is Kandri-Ithel-Elan clan. On page 188, see history of clan Kandri. According DNA their relatives - are descendants of Alans of the Caucasus - Karachays and Balkars, subclade R1a-CTS1806.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    many different groups were called Alans in antiquity, most of which were in pannonia and the Caucasus, not Proto-Bashkiria
    ALANS were in Aral and Ural too. These Massagetaes-Alans.
    The paleo-DNA of Alans - R1a-Z2124.
    The Alans of Caucasus have R1a-Y934, R1b-Z2103 clades.

    About Alans
    http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=2_27082015_8_1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulat View Post
    ALANS were in Aral and Ural too. These Massagetaes-Alans.
    The paleo-DNA of Alans - R1a-Z2124.
    The Alans of Caucasus have R1a-Y934, R1b-Z2103 clades.

    About Alans
    http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=2_27082015_8_1
    If I recall, aDNA from documented Alanic cemeteries in late antiquity and medieval period were Z93, but also G2 and J1.
    So, we should look for such a mix amongst putative descendants
    Moreover, Z93 has been around the southern Russia for thousands of years. So it would take far more aDNA (ie a complete temporal transect, and full sequences) to be able to arrive at conclusions about specific lineage and tribal links, IMHO
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 04-01-2016 at 12:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulat View Post
    ALANS were in Aral and Ural too. These Massagetaes-Alans.
    The paleo-DNA of Alans - R1a-Z2124.
    The Alans of Caucasus have R1a-Y934, R1b-Z2103 clades.

    About Alans
    http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=2_27082015_8_1
    There is a good chance that there are different Alan/Sarmatian clans of R1a/b.Have you tracked any movements of both?
    For example I have found R1b-9219+ amongst Ossetians, Jaszsag and in Northern Italy.
    Any patterns to see matching R1a/R1b from Ural with Ossetian project, R1b-9219+&R1a1a1b2a2a Z2123?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...an/dna-results
    Or Jaszasag project?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    Or Alan Sarmatian settlements like Northern Italy for example?
    http://www.marres.nl/afb/Vestigingen%20Noord-Italie.jpg
    http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm

    Or possible R1a/b Sarmatian units stationed in places like Ribchester England?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribchester
    Last edited by Silesian; 04-01-2016 at 09:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post

    There is a good chance that there are different Alan/Sarmatian clans of R1a/b.Have you tracked any movements of both?
    For example I have found R1b-9219+ amongst Ossetians, Jaszsag and in Northern Italy.
    Any patterns to see matching R1a/R1b from Ural with Ossetian project, R1b-9219+&R1a1a1b2a2a Z2123?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...an/dna-results
    Or Jaszasag project?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    Or Alan Sarmatian settlements like Northern Italy for example?
    http://www.marres.nl/afb/Vestigingen%20Noord-Italie.jpg
    http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm

    Or possible R1a/b Sarmatian units stationed in places like Ribchester England?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribchester
    IMHO (my opinion):

    - Massagetaes-Alans: R1a-Y934, Ra-CTS1806, R1b-Z2103. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

    Sarmatians:
    - Roxolani-Sarmatians: CTS3402, CTS1211*Parent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxolani
    - Aorsen-Sarmatians (Aorsi): N1c-L1034, R1a-Z2123, R1a-Y2632. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorsi
    - Iazyges-Sarmatians: G2a-L1264. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges
    - Siraces-Sarmatians: R1a-Z2122, R1a-M458.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces


    Asii:
    - Asuens (Wusun): R1a-FGC10232, R1a-M458. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusun
    - Asii: R1a-M458.
    - Tocharians: R1a-M458. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians

    Paleo-DNA:
    - Tarim mummies: R1a-M458 (Tocharians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_Desert_Highway

    P.S. Proto-Celtic tribes: R1a-M458.

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    Here are some dates for snp's as provided by https://www.yfull.com/tree/ R1a in blue R1b in red[ I also added a few not on your list, found in modern day populations]

    - Massagetaes-Alans:
    R1a-Y934,-R-Y934Y934formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp
    Ra-CTS1806FGC22475/YP455 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp
    R1b-Z2103formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpYamnaya-Kalmykia, modern day Avars
    R1b-Z2106-formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100Yamnaya-Kalmykia, modern day Tabasarans
    R1b-Z2108Z2109/CTS1843 *formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpYamnaya-Poltavka, modern day Burzyan Bashkirs
    R1b-M73, M478R-M478Y13208 * Y13209 * Y13202+32 SNPsformed 13500 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybpLebyazhinka Hunter Gatherer also found in Modern day Bashkirs
    R1b- Z2110/CTS7822 *formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
    R1b- CTS9219 * formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp Modern day Ossetians/Alans.

    Sarmatians:
    R1a- CTS3402formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybp
    R1a-Z2122formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
    R1a-M458formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp

    R1b-L51formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybpinfoModern day Europe
    R1b-V8817200 ybp, TMRCA 10000 ybpmodern day Italy?

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    Some of the r1a, j2 and g2a samples in iberia could came with alans. I saw some man that was j1 and he was related(with more or less 2200 years ago) with the Persian Nobility, and he is iberian, it could be related with alan nobility

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