Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Are Welsh people a restricted gene pool, autosomally?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,250
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA (M)
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union

    Are Welsh people a restricted gene pool, autosomally?

    I've looked over large numbers of my matches to try to work out why I seem to be related to half of Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee.

    The only common denominator appears to be that every single one of my matches there has one or more lines whose surnames suggest Welsh origins.

    The crux is, they are never the same line. Some will have Hughes, others Jones and Roberts, others still will have a Davis and a Pritchard but none of the others, etc. Other than general suggestions of Welsh ancestry, I can't find any links.

    I do have several Welsh lines, but all back in the 17th/18th centuries, and some of those were Marchers. I am wondering if the small Welsh population at the time of early immigration to the US South (about 350,000) combined with the toll of the Black Death is small enough to account for myriad segments that seem genealogical, but are actually population-based matches?
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  2. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-06-2016),  avalon (07-18-2016),  BalkanKiwi (04-06-2016),  Cinnamon orange (04-13-2016),  dp (04-07-2016),  GMan71 (04-06-2016),  Gray Fox (04-06-2016),  jdean (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016),  Táltos (04-06-2016),  Tomenable (04-06-2016)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,101
    Sex
    Location
    Brisbane
    Nationality
    Australian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T-P322 (T1a2b1)
    mtDNA (M)
    H6a1

    Australia Cornwall England Scotland Germany Poland
    I don't know about the Welsh.
    The Cornish who left for USA, Australia and elsewhere were often miners who left when mines were closed in their area.
    Furthermore, they often tended to stick together - going on the same ship, or joining others from the same area who had left earlier,
    Tracing back quite a few lines, people had generally been around the same area of Cornwall for generations, marrying people not too far away. Over a few hundred years there must have been quite a deal of shared DNA.
    Wales is often hilly which tends to make travel more difficult and in other places certainly tends to lead to endogamy.
    Other ethnic groups who left the old country in sizable numbers and had a different language or cultural background often clung together in the new country for a generation or two.

    What I do know about the Welsh surnames you mentioned - Hughes, Jones, Roberts, Davis, Prichard - are all patronyms.
    Many Welsh adopted such permanent names only around 1800. (Although there was some earlier activity in the 1500s.) It is unlikely but possible that one person - let's call him Owen - had sons Hugh, John, Robert, David and Richard (English name forms). If their sons took on permanent surnames they would be Hughes, Jones, Roberts, Davis, Prichard.
    I'm sure it is not that close. This is an extreme example to make a point: that these patronymic surnames may not go back very far as permanent surnames. Previously they would have changed each generation - Hugh ap Owen, John ap Hugh ap Owen and so on.
    English visitors to Wales in the early 1800s tell how every working man could relate 7 generations of his ancestors in this way.

    Maybe you already know all of this. I'm sure some Welsh wizard is going to give you a proper answer!
    Last edited by Saetro; 04-06-2016 at 01:35 AM.

  4. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Saetro For This Useful Post:

     AJL (04-06-2016),  estevard (04-06-2016),  GMan71 (04-06-2016),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,250
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA (M)
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union
    Thanks. One of the best insights I have for how this could happen is a mystery ancestor from New England, "Grannis," potentially a patronymic from Gronw or Goronwy. We have a yDNA sample from one of his descendants:

    http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.a...&viewuid=57VT2

    His best matches are Adams, Owens, and Jones. This seems like a pretty good indication he was probably Welsh, and his matches all seem to be from Virginia or the Carolinas. So I think you're probably right the links are going back to Wales, a little before fixed surnames.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     GMan71 (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,159
    Sex
    Location
    Washington state
    Ethnicity
    European blend
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a1a1 L664/YP5623
    mtDNA (M)
    U5b2b2/G228A

    United States of America European Union Norway Austrian Empire United Kingdom Germany Imperial
    I have a lot of southern USA matches too. And I also have colonial Welsh connections. Ancestry DNA gives me 17% Irish, which includes Welsh and Gaelic Scotch. That percentage seems too high, considering it all should come from my maternal grandmother. Morgan and Jarman are two Welsh names. I don't know about Wheeldon, which must have been something else in Wales, assuming it really goes back to Wales (via Delaware).
    Last edited by Baltimore1937; 04-06-2016 at 03:04 AM.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Baltimore1937 For This Useful Post:

     AJL (04-06-2016),  GMan71 (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    53
    Sex
    Location
    South Australia
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    Australian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP706
    mtDNA (M)
    U5b2a1a2

    Australia Wales Aland Finland Germany England
    Ive posted similarly elsewhere - Welsh from the Marcher areas on mums side of the family and seem to have heaps of matches to people from Virginia, Tenessee, the Carolina's, Mississipi and Texas.
    Interesting to see from the above messages I'm not the only one! I too can't see any paper trail links.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to GMan71 For This Useful Post:

     AJL (04-06-2016)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,919
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106 Z326 R-BY27310
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1b2a

    United Kingdom Wales
    As I've learned myself Welsh surnames don't mean a lot if you go far back because they were fixed relatively late. You could have numerous people who are genetically related with different surnames.
    Quite a lot of Welsh people went to certain parts of America associated with coal mining and steel production and just as general migrants.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     AJL (04-06-2016),  GMan71 (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,919
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106 Z326 R-BY27310
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1b2a

    United Kingdom Wales
    Just as an aside, certain surnames are or were very common in Welsh regiments of the British army so it has been practice for them to be addressed by surname and part of their Regimental number such as "Jones 51". Use of nicknames in Wales was very common at one time, so a coal man might be known as "Jones the coal". One of my grandfathers was known as "Jones Cider" because supposedly they used to make the stuff. You don't hear it quite so much these days. Some names were also attached to places which is why mine is JohnHowellsTyrFro

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...vhilo838HI1Jww

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     AJL (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,250
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA (M)
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    se of nicknames in Wales was very common at one time, so a coal man might be known as "Jones the coal". One of my grandfathers was known as "Jones Cider" because supposedly they used to make the stuff. You don't hear it quite so much these days. Some names were also attached to places which is why mine is JohnHowellsTyrFro
    Thanks John. I have a slippery mystery ancestor whose surname was Smith, and who actually was a blacksmith. He seems to have come from either New York or Pennsylvania (the second had lots of coal miner by about the 1810s, many of them Welsh) up to Canada by 1830. I do wonder – given what you say – whether his name, or his father's, was something like "Jones the Smith," and the second occupational name just stuck as a surname. But at the the same time GMan71's experience suggests, I think, that just my several known Welsh lines could account for the phenomenon without jumping to any conclusions about my ambiguous Smith. (For example I have a Bobet from Glamorganshire, possibly from Pobydd, "baker").
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (04-06-2016),  rms2 (04-06-2016),  Saetro (04-07-2016)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    862
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-FT248579
    mtDNA (M)
    H5

    United States of America Canada
    OK, some of you may have seen my posts about a person who fathered probably well over a thousand children with hundreds of women in early 18th Century North Carolina and Virginia. This person was a Thomas Edward Green b. 1700 in Culpeper VA. I have determined a great grandfather of Mr. Green to be Richard Eivens, an 8th great grandfather of mine several ways. Mr. Eivens passed through Barbados in the mid 1600s before settling in the Perquimans area of North Carolina. His fate is not known after that, but I am virtually certain that a Richard Evans who married a Elizabeth Hall in Maryland in the late 1600s is him. I haven't found any paternal lines to my Mr.Richard Eivens, but several people have to the one in Maryland. That group generally believes that Mr. Evans is Welsh. Maybe someone who is more adept with Y-DNA than me will review that situation. I can point them out in the Evans Project.

    I am at a bit of a brickwall with Mr. Eivens in Barbados. It is possible that he was born in Great Britain. The other good possibility is that he was fathered by a Griffith or Griffin Evans who was exiled to Barbados in 1636, if my memory serves me. Many people can trace more than one way to Mr. Evans/Eivens and I think that is likely the source of many of these apparent Welsh connections. Here are a few segments to look at. Comparing with me (F239841 subject to change shortly) or my mother M795522 for 23andMe V4 chipset kits, using 250 SNPs and 1.0 cM minimum segment, if you match on #12 in the area of 20.0-22.0 Mbp, you likely have Richard Evans/Eivens as an ancestor. Also on #5 around 128.0-132.0 Mbp is good too, but it is via Mr. Green. Another area for Eivens/Evans is #15 around 38.0 - 44.0 Mbp but that might include a possible brother or half brother, Peter Evans. There are other places but those are some of the ones I look at on the first screening in evaluating a new "match".

    Jack
    Last edited by C J Wyatt III; 04-06-2016 at 03:50 PM.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to C J Wyatt III For This Useful Post:

     AJL (04-06-2016),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (04-06-2016)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,250
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA (M)
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union
    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    Many people can trace more than one way to Mr. Evans/Eivens and I think that is likely the source of many of these apparent Welsh connections. Here are a few segments to look at. Comparing with me (F239841 subject to change shortly) or my mother M795522 for 23andMe V4 chipset kits, using 250 SNPs and 1.0 cM minimum segment, if you match on #12 in the area of 20.0-22.0 Mbp, you likely have Richard Evans/Eivens as an ancestor. Also on #5 around 128.0-132.0 Mbp is good too, but it is via Mr. Green. Another area for Eivens/Evans is #15 around 38.0 - 44.0 Mbp but that might include a possible brother or half brother, Peter Evans. There are other places but those are some of the ones I look at on the first screening in evaluating a new "match".
    Thanks -- no matches in those regions, though you have one with my mother of 6.5 cM and 269 SNPs on chromosome 14, positions 29.8 m to 32.4 m.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     C J Wyatt III (04-06-2016)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 88
    Last Post: 08-21-2019, 01:31 PM
  2. Replies: 33
    Last Post: 10-19-2018, 05:47 PM
  3. Replies: 82
    Last Post: 01-05-2018, 08:10 PM
  4. People without Gene for Underarm Odor Still Wear Deodorant
    By Clinton P in forum Anatomy and Physiology
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 01-29-2016, 03:37 PM
  5. Replies: 37
    Last Post: 07-16-2013, 03:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •