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Thread: R1b-U106 were the True Celts and Belgae (my opinion)

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    R1b-U106 were the True Celts and Belgae (my opinion)

    Check this 2015 paper on U106 by Iain McDonald:

    http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...15-revised.pdf

    On page 4 out of 22 he gives frequencies of U106:



    Celtic "Urheimat" as well as lands of the Belgae have high frequencies of R1b-U106:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Tène_culture

    Beaker Folks were IMHO not Celtic - they spoke some language which is long EXTINCT by now:



    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-17-2016 at 12:59 PM.

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    Gallia Belgica (Gaule Belgique):



    Belgica:


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    Change the 06 in your title to 52 and you got it right
    (Humor intended)
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-17-2016 at 01:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Change the 06 in your title to 52 and you got it right
    (Humor intended)
    : ))))

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    I disagree with the idea that U106 ever had much of a connection to Celtic peoples.

    U106 is most frequent among Germanic speakers and their descendants and falls off precipitously in non-Germanic lands, especially in those places where Italo-Celtic languages prevail or, as in parts of Britain and in Ireland, where Celtic speech held out longest.

    Dienekes summed things up well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    The existence of R-U106 as a major lineage within the Germanic group is self-evident, as Germanic populations have a higher frequency against all their neighbors (Romance, Irish, Slavs, Finns). Indeed, highest frequencies are attained in the Germanic countries, followed by countries where Germanic speakers are known to have settled in large numbers but to have ultimately been absorbed or fled (such as Ireland, north Italy, and the lands of the Austro-Hungarian empire). South Italy, the Balkans, and West Asia are areas of the world where no Germanic settlement of any importance is attested, and correspondingly R-U106 shrinks to near-zero.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...ntral-and.html

    What is now Austria is currently German speaking and has been since it was settled by Germans during the Migration Period. Just as its current language cannot be attributed to the "Real Proto-Celts", neither can its level of y-dna U106. What is now the Czech Republic was also heavily settled by Germans, as well as Slavs. As in the case of Austria, its modern y-dna profile is about as representative of "Real Proto-Celts" as its Czech language is.

    The Netherlands is Germanic speaking and has been for millennia, since it too was settled by Germanic tribes beginning about 700 BC. In Belgium, U106 is most frequent among the Germanic Flemings and declines among the Walloons, who are the descendants of the old Gallo-Roman population.

    In Britain, the distribution of U106 matches the pattern of the arrival, settlement and spread of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English. It declines precipitously in the areas of Britain where the Celts held out against the English the longest. In Ireland, U106 is relatively rare and is commonest in those areas that were settled during the historical period by outsiders from areas, like England, where U106 is much more frequent than it is in Ireland.

    When it comes to ancient y-dna, no U106 has turned up in any clearly Celtic contexts. On the other hand, it has turned up in what is likely to be a Proto or Pre-Proto-Germanic context, and that in its oldest incarnation to date, circa 2300 BC, in a set of remains from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden (RISE 98). As far as I know, no one has ever claimed that the Celts, "Real Proto" or otherwise, ever occupied Sweden.

    I think the evidence is pretty clear that the dominant y haplogroup among the Celts was R1b-P312 and its subclades.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-17-2016 at 01:58 PM.

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    On a personal level, would it bother you if your paternal line was of German origin?

    Knowing the history of Poland and Germany that would an understandable feeling.

    EDIT: I assumed you were U106 when I first posted, but your profile only says you are R-M269.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-17-2016 at 02:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    In Belgium, U106 is most frequent among the Germanic Flemings and declines among the Walloons, who are the descendants of the old Gallo-Roman population.
    "Walloon" is not an ethnic term, it's a linguistic/political term.
    Last edited by tchekitchek; 04-17-2016 at 02:55 PM.

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    @Tomenable

    The ancient Celts probably already belonged to a mixed bag of haplogroups, including R1b U106. It makes as much sense to say any of those were the "real" Celts as to say the "real" Portuguese are R1b or the "real" Poles are R1a. The idea that Celts originated in Halstatt and La Tène is outdated (where have you been in the last 30 years?). The ancient Celtic world, as known to us from place and personal names, tribal names, inscriptions, artifacts and ancient authors correlates very well with the modern distribution of P312 and not with U106. If you want to convince us otherwise you need more serious arguments.

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    I think the Belgae might be slightly different than we think. Ceaser called them 'part German' and the assumption is that they were 'Germans' mixed with 'Celts'. I have been wondering if they were the descendants of a mixture that occurred in Bell Beaker and Corded Wear times. I'd be surprised if U106 was even near at this time. Maybe DF27 from a North/South and a little later L21 from the East. There is evidence of people moving from the Eastern BB into the Northern Maritime BB areas. This could be the arrival of L21 still more pastoralist meeting DF27 more maritime. This would leave L21 sitting ready to move to the isles. Of course there were other Haplogroups, U152 small presence, but these seem the most influential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893
    I assumed you were U106 when I first posted, but your profile only says you are R-M269.
    That's because I have just ordered Y-DNA12 so far. I plan to order SNP Pack, but haven't ordered it yet.

    I'm probably P312 or U106, but who knows.

    Here are my Y-STR results (nothing more detailed than R1b-M269 cannot be deduced from these 12 STRs):



    would it bother you if your paternal line was of German origin?
    Nope. But I know from genealogy that I don't have any German paternal ancestry as far back as 1800 AD.

    OTOH, my mom's maiden name is Meller, which AFAIK is a surname of Low Saxon or Low Franconian origin:



    But that's maternal line (the surname is from my maternal grandfather's father's father, and so on).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-17-2016 at 06:29 PM.

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