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Thread: Azeri DNA

  1. #1
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    Azeri DNA

    These are frequencies from another forum. But I thought it was interesting. I don't know where the samples were from or if they were decent in size.


    Y-DNA of Republic Azeris
    J2a-20.8%
    R1a-19%
    R1b-17.5%
    E1b-11.1%
    G2-8.0%
    T-7.9%
    L-4.8%
    J1-4.8%
    Q-4.8%
    N-1.6%

    Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
    J2b-21.11%
    R1b-15.15%
    G2-12.12%
    J1-9.09%
    R1a-9.09%
    Q-9.09%
    N-6.06%
    L-3.03%
    J2a-3.03%
    R2-3.03%
    G1-3.03%
    C3-3.03%
    O-3.03%

    These frequencies are truly surprising. It looks like the Republic Azeris are more Indo-Iranian in chracter from those studies with J2a makng up close to 40% of their Y-DNA lineages with a percentage of aout 12% for Iranian Azeris. R2 is absent from the Republic Azeri gene pool but L is present. There was no clade breakdown for the Iranian Azeri L but the Republic Azeri L included L1a and L1c which in my opinion is a lineage that arrived in the Azeri gene pool from the East as Armenian seem to posses L1b when they possess L. In addition so much is made of how similar Republic Azeris are to Armenians yet R1b only represent 17.5% of Republic Azeri samples whereas R1b frequencies among Armenians seem to be higher and in the range of 30-40%. In addition J1 and G2 seem to be more important in the Armenian gene pool compared to the Republic Azeri gene pool. Armenian exhibit a lot of G2a diverity and part of the Republic Azeri G2 here is G2c. In addition it seems like Iranian Azerbaijan had more Eastern settlement. Eastern lineages (represented by Q, N, C3 and O at a combined frequency of 21.2%) seem to be more repesented in the Iranian Azeri sample than the Republic one (which exhibits Eastern lineages at a frequency of just 6.4% which includes just Q and N and no C3 or O). Very surprising because I thought the Kura-Araxes basin was subject to more nomadic Turkic settlement (but the geography of the area still confuses me as I thought a large portion of the Kura-Araxes basin lies in Nagarno-Karabakh which is historically and majority Armenian according to Armenians although their claim on Paytakran seems unfounded given its Iranian character).

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    These are frequencies from another forum. But I thought it was interesting. I don't know where the samples were from or if they were decent in size.


    Y-DNA of Republic Azeris
    J2a-20.8%
    R1a-19%
    R1b-17.5%
    E1b-11.1%
    G2-8.0%
    T-7.9%
    L-4.8%
    J1-4.8%
    Q-4.8%
    N-1.6%

    Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
    J2b-21.11%
    R1b-15.15%
    G2-12.12%
    J1-9.09%
    R1a-9.09%
    Q-9.09%
    N-6.06%
    L-3.03%
    J2a-3.03%
    R2-3.03%
    G1-3.03%
    C3-3.03%
    O-3.03%

    These frequencies are truly surprising. It looks like the Republic Azeris are more Indo-Iranian in chracter from those studies with J2a makng up close to 40% of their Y-DNA lineages with a percentage of aout 12% for Iranian Azeris. R2 is absent from the Republic Azeri gene pool but L is present. There was no clade breakdown for the Iranian Azeri L but the Republic Azeri L included L1a and L1c which in my opinion is a lineage that arrived in the Azeri gene pool from the East as Armenian seem to posses L1b when they possess L. In addition so much is made of how similar Republic Azeris are to Armenians yet R1b only represent 17.5% of Republic Azeri samples whereas R1b frequencies among Armenians seem to be higher and in the range of 30-40%. In addition J1 and G2 seem to be more important in the Armenian gene pool compared to the Republic Azeri gene pool. Armenian exhibit a lot of G2a diverity and part of the Republic Azeri G2 here is G2c. In addition it seems like Iranian Azerbaijan had more Eastern settlement. Eastern lineages (represented by Q, N, C3 and O at a combined frequency of 21.2%) seem to be more repesented in the Iranian Azeri sample than the Republic one (which exhibits Eastern lineages at a frequency of just 6.4% which includes just Q and N and no C3 or O). Very surprising because I thought the Kura-Araxes basin was subject to more nomadic Turkic settlement (but the geography of the area still confuses me as I thought a large portion of the Kura-Araxes basin lies in Nagarno-Karabakh which is historically and majority Armenian according to Armenians although their claim on Paytakran seems unfounded given its Iranian character).
    I am also surprised by these numbers. I wonder since the seat of the power of both qara koyunlu and aq koyunlu were in the Iranian Azerbaijan and centered around both Tabriz ( it became their capital ) and Ardabil ( it was the capital city of Iranian Azerbaijan), that is main reason for the presence of high eastern genes. Interestingly the nomadic people of Shahsevan Tribe in Ardabil show a lot of light hair and eyes among them today and Central Asian phenotype is not really present among them.

    It is interesting the Azeris in Azerbaijan have so much R.


    I wonder if user DMXX can also comment, since he and I are both of Iranian Azeri fathers and both us belong to R haplogroup.

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    The last row of data looks like it's from Regueiro et al. from memory. In that study, they simply divided Iran into north and south, so the 33 or so North Iranians they sampled cannot be taken as Azeri in the truest sense. I do not remember them ever stating they sampled the Azeri provinces.

    We need to know where this data came from, because the last one definitely looks like it's the non-Azeri specific North Iranian data from Reguiero et al.

    To contrast it with Grugni et al.'s analysis of Azeri's from W. Azarbaijan province, where 63 people were sampled, the combined frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroups C, N, O and Q (which are typically equated with Turkish influence) comes to 6.4%, which is over three times smaller than the data presented in the second line. See the image at the bottom of this post. Clearly, it is a case of small sample sizes affecting the result.

    If my assertion is correct and the second line of data is indeed from Reguiero, then we have an interesting case of data misidentification; north Iranian genetic data has been mistaken for Azeri Iranian genetic data. Quite a convoluted path.

    [Edit]: My memory has served me well. The second line of data is indeed from Reguiero et al. (click here). This data is therefore not from the Azeri Republic, or even from Azeri Iranian specifically. Whoever your source was made quite a large error.


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    ^^ How does the relationship between Iranian Azeris and Azeris from Azerbaijan manifest itself Genetically. Baku, Ganja and Shirvan (Shirvan Shahis Dynasty) areas had been centers of Persian language (specially Ganja birth place of Nezami Ganjavi) and culture and later on both regions adopted the same language Azeri Turkish and culturally we are both the same. Even Nakhjavani region speak Azeri-Turkish with a very Iranian Azeri Accent.
    Last edited by NK19191; 03-02-2013 at 10:43 PM.

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    I don't know the answer to this. We have very circumstantial data from each group separately which may well change if the two are compared against one another.

    What we do know is Azeri Iranians are closest to other Iranian populations. The Grugni et al. demonstrated this through one set of uniparental markers (Y-DNA), whilst this study from Tabriz (Asgharzadeh et al.) shows the same in the other (mtDNA).

    In my personal opinion, I suspect there will be some evidence of genetic similarity between Azeri Iranians and those from the Republic, however I anticipate Azeri Iranians to remain closer to other Iranians (particularly those from the northwest given geography such as Kurds, the Talysh, Gilakis) while Republic Azeris will show more of a pull towards other South Caucasians. I do not expect the linguistic connection to be complemented by genetics to the same degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I don't know the answer to this. We have very circumstantial data from each group separately which may well change if the two are compared against one another.

    What we do know is Azeri Iranians are closest to other Iranian populations. The Grugni et al. demonstrated this through one set of uniparental markers (Y-DNA), whilst this study from Tabriz (Asgharzadeh et al.) shows the same in the other (mtDNA).

    In my personal opinion, I suspect there will be some evidence of genetic similarity between Azeri Iranians and those from the Republic, however I anticipate Azeri Iranians to remain closer to other Iranians (particularly those from the northwest given geography such as Kurds, the Talysh, Gilakis) while Republic Azeris will show more of a pull towards other South Caucasians. I do not expect the linguistic connection to be complemented by genetics to the same degree.

    However, is it a fair assumption to have people of Republic of Azerbaijan cluster closest to NW Iranians aside from other groups in South Caucasus. That is if you compare them to other none South Caucasus Region people, we would be closest to them. Furthermore, Of all the South Caucasus people they would cluster closest to Iranians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK19191 View Post
    However, is it a fair assumption to have people of Republic of Azerbaijan cluster closest to NW Iranians aside from other groups in South Caucasus. That is if you compare them to other none South Caucasus Region people, we would be closest to them. Furthermore, Of all the South Caucasus people they would cluster closest to Iranians.
    It's very possible that is the case and I wouldn't be surprised, you are right, it certainly is a fair assumption. The Safavids held onto the Caucasus for a very long time and the Republic was Iranian territory until the Treaty of Turkmenchay.

    If newtoboard could reveal where exactly he received his information from, it would be a good start in fleshing out the nature of the affinities between Azeri Iranians, Republic Azeris and other peoples from the Caucasus and Iranian plateau.

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    If those were generic North Iranian samples I am even more surprised. Eastern lineages being represented at these percentages in North Iranians (assuming that they didn't test Turkmen and North Iranians are represented by Azeris, Talysh, Mazandarani, Persian and Gilaki speakers). The lack of Y-DNA I would also be surprising as most Gilaki and Mazandarani samples seem to show some (an interesting topic in itself). Either way a small sample size or testing of Turkmen or something is reducing the true amount of J2a, R1a, and R1b in North Iran. The curious lack of J1b which seems to be well represented near the Caspian (as it probably originated there) is also very telling that this probably wasn't a typical sample.

    The South Caucasus doesn't seem to be a homogenous place although Georgians seem to be the best representation. We often hear how close Azeris are to Armenians but aren't Armenians shifted southwards towards NE and Central Anatolia? In the same way Azeris are probably also shifted southwards towards the Iranian plateau. It would be more interesting to see how close Azeri from the Republic are to Georgians vs North Iranians.


    I'm more curious on the position of Azeris living in the Republic but South of the Araxes. I assume they would have been speaking Old Azari and not Armenian, Talysh or the dialect of Persian spoken in Arran. What about the Tats of Azerbaijan (the Judeo-Tats of Dagestan seem to be completely different). What about Azeris in Turkey who live manily in Northeast and Northcentral Turkey? Are they Azerified Anatolians (Greeks, Armenians, Georgians) or does their history lie in Iran or Arran?

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    Just to show you how pervasive and strong Iranian influence in Azerbaijan has been. The
    Azerbaijani Jews of Arran who are called mountain Jews, speak a Judeo-Persian Language. It is a Persainized Hebrew language that they speak. Ganja itself is a Persian word meaning Treasure.

    The Azeris of Turkey are either from Arran or Iranian Azerbaijan, the former has been the main source of their migration. The Azeris in Turkey are mainly due to various political events that occurred in Arran and Iranian Azerbaijan. The first wave of these migration was during the Safavid Dynasty in the 16th Century when some settled in Eastern Turkey ( Eastern Turkey was at that time Part of Iran)
    Last edited by NK19191; 03-04-2013 at 12:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK19191 View Post
    Just to show you how pervasive and strong Iranian influence in Azerbaijan has been. THe Azerbaijani Jews of Arran who are called mountain Jews, speak a Judeo-Persain Language. It is a Persainized Hebrew language that they speak.
    Yes, a form of Tat.
     

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    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
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    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
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    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
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    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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