The Dailamites and J2a-M92

[newtoboard]

This is a topic which has interested me for a while. Did the Dailamites originate in Anatolia and migrate into Iran or was the migration westwards from Gilan? I believe the Zazaki Kurds show some links to them as they call one of their dialects by a name similar to Dailamites and there was a city of Zazana near the Eurphrates. Some Say the Dailamites moved into (no idea if central or eastern) Anatolia around 800 AD while others say they abosrbed the Hurrian population. One lineage that interests me is J2a-M92. That paper on Iranian genetics showed that J2a-M92 is a recent arrival in Iran from Anatolia and estimated to be between 1300 and 2600 years old in Iran. Does anybody have any frequencies for this lineage? I believe its peak in Iran was in Sistan and Baluchistan. Interesting because Balochis often claim to be descended from the Kurds of Syria. So how did they get this lineage? If the Dailamites were from Iran this would make it harder to explain. They were also known for being physically distinct from their neighbors which weakens an iranian origin for them. I doubt Gilakis stick out against their neighbors which would include Talysh speakers, Iranian Azeris, Mazandaranis, Northern Persians etc But in Anatolia they would be surrounded by Assyrians, Syrian Arabs, Greeks, Hellenized Anatolians, Caucasian people along the Black Sea Coast, and Armenians and their possible long headed phenotypes might explain why they were mentioned for sticking out(The Pontic Greeks were long headed I guess but they would have looked more Mediterranian than any Iranian speaking population so the Dailmites could have still stuck out against them).

[NK19191]

Here is a bit more information on Dailamites according to Historian Kaveh Farrokh.


"The term Dailamites may derive from the “Dimilii” who were a tribe of Medes who migrated into Northern Persia (roughly modern Gilan and Mazandaran today). Their descendants survive to this day in northern Iran.

These Medes would have come from what is roughly the northwest of Iran – they still exist as the “Dimili” among the ZaZa-Kurds of today who are believed by linguists to speak a variant of the Parthian Pahlavi language distinct from modern Kurmanji (Bahdenani and Sorani) spoken by the majority of modern-day Kurds.

The pace and timing of the Dimilii migrations are not exactly clear when this took place, as migrations were gradual, however we are certain that by the time of Sassanian king Khosrow I (6th century), the Dailamites were fully established in Northern Persia.

What is certain is that the Romano-Byzantines had a high respect for Dailamite skills in face to face combat (see writings of Agathias for example). They are reported as having fought with weapons such as daggers, swords, and javelins. They fought usually in the Caucasus against Turkic incursions into ancient Albania (modern Republic of Azerbaijan – different from Albania in Europe).

When the Sassanian Empire (224-651 AD) collapsed in the wake of the Arabian invasions it was in the north where Iranian resistance finally solidified. The one singular Arab failure in all of their otherwise spectacular successes in Iran, Byzantium, Central Asia, Syria, North Africa and Spain, was in northern Persia. The Dailamites solidly blocked Arab troops from entering northern Persia. As noted by Overlaet

“Daylaman remained unconquered…until at least the 8th century AD…early Daylamite rulers even exhibited extreme anti-Arab attitudes and sought the restoration of the Persian Empire and the of the ancient religions” (1998, p.268)."

[newtoboard]

Yea apparently the Arabs had trouble with the forests of Northern Iran(which btw are ridiculously beautiful). Iran is pretty much a fortress (and if it wasn't for the inability to secure its NE frontier it would have been very hard for invaders to capture it-that plus the Byzantine fighting which weakened both it and Anatolia). [Same applies to the Indian subcontinent which is an island fortress which was conquered over and over due to the failure of South Asian rulers to secure the Bolan and Khyber passes in the NW with the exception of the Maruyan and Sikh empires-but mostly the Khyber pass as very few invasions came through the deserts of Balochistan.] As you have noted the mountains and swamps on the Western border help to defend it. And Iranian expansion into Arran (which I believe occured in Zorastrian and even pre Sassanid or Selecuid times -same for the expansion into Anatolia too maybe?) kind of revered the situation as the plains of N-Karabakh are surrounded by the mountains of Armenia. The mountains remained Armenianwhile the plains were Persianized. For example the Armenian province of Utik was only held by them for less than 200 years before Sassanids and Albanians retook it. This time Iranians lived on the plains with the mountains restricting their expansion. And Arran is basically the Republic of Azerbaijan minus N-K, Nachvien, and lands south of the Araxes but I have heard of Georgian claims on Western ganja but I doubt they have any basis.

[NK19191]

You are absolutely correct, Iran has always had an ambition to Iranianize the People of the Caucasus since the time of the Medes and Achmenid. The power who has ruled Anatolia Plateau has had the same ambition ( Romans, Byzantium and Ottomans)

However, the Armenians and Georgians have been far more successful to resist the Iranian Influence.

You are correct, Zoroastrian Religion did enter Arran pre Sassanid time; however, It is really Post Sassanid Period and Arab Period that Arran finally becomes very much influenced by Iranians. Furthermore, It must be noted that republic of Azerbaijan has never been fully Iranian and at times they have cooperated with the power who Rules the Anatolian Plateau (Either Romans or Byzantines or Ottomans) to resist the Iranian Influence and maintain their independence from Iran.

Ganja was part of Georgia for a short period, during the reign of Queen Tamara whose rule is considered as a Golden Age for the Georgian and it is also a period of the greatest extent of the Georgian Power. Not only Ganja was incorporated into their empire but also Iranian cities of Tabriz, Zanjan and even Qazvin. This period was short and was from 1184–1213 A.D.

It was The Mongol Invasion of the entire region that ended this period.

[newtoboard]

You are absolutely correct, Iran has always had an ambition to Iranianize the People of the Caucasus since the time of the Medes and Achmenid. The power who has ruled Anatolia Plateau has had the same ambition ( Romans, Byzantium and Ottomans)

However, the Armenians and Georgians have been far more successful to resist the Iranian Influence.

You are correct, Zoroastrian Religion did enter Arran pre Sassanid time; however, It is really Post Sassanid Period and Arab Period that Arran finally becomes very much influenced by Iranians. Furthermore, It must be noted that republic of Azerbaijan has never been fully Iranian and at times they have cooperated with the power who Rules the Anatolian Plateau (Either Romans or Byzantines or Ottomans) to resist the Iranian Influence and maintain their independence from Iran.

Ganja was part of Georgia for a short period, during the reign of Queen Tamara whose rule is considered as a Golden Age for the Georgian and it is also a period of the greatest extent of the Georgian Power. Not only Ganja was incorporated into their empire but also Iranian cities of Tabriz, Zanjan and even Qazvin. This period was short and was from 1184–1213 A.D.

It was The Mongol Invasion of the entire region that ended this period.

I have no idea how Iran often fell to a bunch of mountain people like Armenians, Georgians . Its population density was much higher than these lands and was almost always more technologically advanced. I guess the fact the economy of the Caucasus has always been inferior motivated those people to expanded. I guess similar to the Durrani empire. But still shouldn't have happened. Then again I guess Mohammad Khan Qajar got the best of the Georgians.

[NK19191]

I have no idea how Iran often fell to a bunch of mountain people like Armenians, Georgians . Its population density was much higher than these lands and was almost always more technologically advanced. I guess the fact the economy of the Caucasus has always been inferior motivated those people to expanded. I guess similar to the Durrani empire. But still shouldn't have happened. Then again I guess Mohammad Khan Qajar got the best of the Georgians.

No doubt, the impact of Iran on Georgians and Armenians can be seen in their languages and cultures. I just wanted to point-out that Georgians and Armenians have expanded beyond their border for a short period in their histories. These expansion were all very short-lived and they were just for a few years not even decades by the Georgians and Armenians.

However, both ethnic groups because of their Isolated mountainous region have been able to maintain their identity over the years. What mountains do offer their inhabitants is a wealth of defensive options. It is much easier to hide or fight an invader in mountains than in flat plains (Other good Examples Tajiks, Pashtuns, Pamiris, Kalash, Basque, Tibetans and Kashmirs) . Outside powers find penetrating these regions -- much less constructing the infrastructure or fielding a force required to dominate them -- a gargantuan task. Mountain regions are where major powers go in times of extreme power or extreme need.

So whenever Iran has been strong it has dominated both the Georgians and Armenians. Yes during the Qajar Period they were both Part of Iran.

Also they were part of Iran during the Safavid Dynasty. The Georgians and Armenian Influence in Iran has actually come when Iran has incorporated them into its borders and allowed them the access of a much larger economy. A perfect example was during the Safavid Period both Georgians and Armenians excelled economically and in the case of the Georgians Politcally in Iran. Georgians became Soldiers and Administrators and Armenians became known as the Merchants of Jolfa ( when Shah Abbas Moved them to Jolfa Isfahan) during the Reign of Shah Abbas. It was a Golden Period for Iran and them.

I also noticed the UN Population Projection for 2050, The Iranian population will reach 100 million in 2050 from 75 Million, in Georgia from current 4,5 million to 3,5 million and in Armenia from current 3,2 million to 3 million and in Azerbaijan from current 10 Million to 11 Million . The demographic projection favors Iran.

[newtoboard]

Any comments on J2a-M92?

[parasar]

Any comments on J2a-M92?

Spread with Anatolian Greeks (aka Yavan/Yon/Ion/Javan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan ), perhaps?