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Thread: Jewish R1b in Scots

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinduffy View Post
    One of the criticisms that I have seen of this book is that the DNA evidence in this work only includes Y-DNA 12 markers. Why did the researchers use so few markers?
    Yep at least 67 needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    That was my initial thought as well. There was every possibility that those lineages were brought over far in the distant past by the Romans.

    However, they said that the MCRA of one of their samples was from only 1,000 years ago rather than 2,000 or so years if it were to have arrived in the Bronze age or with the Romans.

    I am quite new to DNA testing but can the MCRA be predicted with any real accuracy? I remember reading somewhere that no two people living today have a recent common ancestor older than the 11th century.

    But maybe I am wrong. In any case they assert that the common ancestry of one of their samples was only from around the 11th century.
    Normans it is then

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Some old papers on Sephardic Jews put R1b at close to 25% if I recall. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Scots are ...Scots, not crypto-Jews. It is just coincidental that in some cases they belong to the same haplogroup. I'm not of the mind that P312+ suddenly means an Iberian converted to Judaism. We've seen that P312+ haplotypes actually exist in the Levant and Mideast, most likely arriving during the Bronze or later period, but this remains to be proven.
    True but they would be a tiny percentage, much less than is implied here.
    Last edited by EastAnglian; 04-21-2016 at 01:13 PM.

  2. #12
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    Look as a "scoop" book: American? NO surprise!
    1- the surnames in merica were often changed to pass for British (Grunnenwald/Greenwwod, Neumann/Newman, and so on) - here we deal with "scottish" surnames IN THE USA...
    2- No confidence in STR's surveys (it recalls me the time when Scandinavian were put together with Greeks), even upon more markers. Btw at STRs values all Atlantic Y-R1b are very close one to another, if I'm right.

  3. #13
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    We have even some forms of true gaelic surnames passing for Jewish surnames (Coen, Cohen ...). And if a Jew Levy changes his name into Lewis, are the numerous Lewis of Wales Jews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Some old papers on Sephardic Jews put R1b at close to 25% if I recall. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Scots are ...Scots, not crypto-Jews. It is just coincidental that in some cases they belong to the same haplogroup. I'm not of the mind that P312+ suddenly means an Iberian converted to Judaism. We've seen that P312+ haplotypes actually exist in the Levant and Mideast, most likely arriving during the Bronze or later period, but this remains to be proven.
    I would think nothing of it except for the common ancestry with the Scottish Iberian Y-DNA matches that only have common ancestry going back to the 11th century or so.

    If they were not Jews then how else would Iberian DNA have arrived in Scotland, I wonder?

    Quote Originally Posted by EastAnglian View Post
    Normans it is then
    I would be inclined to think so but the Normans did not bring any lineages from Iberia to the British Isles.

    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    1- the surnames in merica were often changed to pass for British (Grunnenwald/Greenwwod, Neumann/Newman, and so on) - here we deal with "scottish" surnames IN THE USA...
    True but if those Americans can document their ancestry back to Scotland then I am sure we can believe them.

    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    2- No confidence in STR's surveys (it recalls me the time when Scandinavian were put together with Greeks), even upon more markers. Btw at STRs values all Atlantic Y-R1b are very close one to another, if I'm right.
    So they are not always a reliable means of determining a common paternal anestor?

    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    We have even some forms of true gaelic surnames passing for Jewish surnames (Coen, Cohen ...). And if a Jew Levy changes his name into Lewis, are the numerous Lewis of Wales Jews?
    It is possible but if they can trace their ancestry back to Europe then this is not so.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    I would think nothing of it except for the common ancestry with the Scottish Iberian Y-DNA matches that only have common ancestry going back to the 11th century or so.

    If they were not Jews then how else would Iberian DNA have arrived in Scotland, I wonder?



    I would be inclined to think so but the Normans did not bring any lineages from Iberia to the British Isles.



    True but if those Americans can document their ancestry back to Scotland then I am sure we can believe them.



    So they are not always a reliable means of determining a common paternal anestor?



    It is possible but if they can trace their ancestry back to Europe then this is not so.
    What do you mean by Iberian DNA? The latest evidence is from the Bronze Age forward, the people of old Britannia, and Ireland as well, came from central Europe. We actually know less about Iberia, other than the Neolithic population seemed consistent with that of the LBK of central Europe.

    I am not aware of recent connections between Iberian men and British/Irish men overall. They share common nodes in DF27, L21...etc, but these links all go back 4500 years, maybe more and likely to a common source in west-central Europe. How many STR were examined when dating a common ancestor to 11th century? This would be an extremely small number of Scottish and Iberian men and could almost be connected through surname. If this is an old book it's probably looking at too few STR and is not accurate.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    How many STR were examined when dating a common ancestor to 11th century? This would be an extremely small number of Scottish and Iberian men and could almost be connected through surname. If this is an old book it's probably looking at too few STR and is not accurate.
    I am not all that sure. I will have to look again in future when I can next get my hands on this book.

    It was was published in 2007, almost ten years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    I am not all that sure. I will have to look again in future when I can next get my hands on this book.

    It was was published in 2007, almost ten years ago.
    Unfortunately it's far too weak a connection on just 12 or even 25 markers. Many times the matches are just due to both men sharing many modal values. SNPs and 111-str are they way to go, and I don't believe those were commercially accessible back then, or at least they were in their infancy.


    DF27+ ZZ12+ FGC20747+ FGC20767+ FGC20761+ appears to be a Sephardic cluster but doesn't appear related to Scotland for example.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    I would be inclined to think so but the Normans did not bring any lineages from Iberia to the British Isles.
    Let's see, where do we find DF27 in Europe?

    France
    Denmark
    Brittany

    So not beyond the realms of possibility.

  11. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    I would think nothing of it except for the common ancestry with the Scottish Iberian Y-DNA matches that only have common ancestry going back to the 11th century or so.

    If they were not Jews then how else would Iberian DNA have arrived in Scotland, I wonder?

    True but if those Americans can document their ancestry back to Scotland then I am sure we can believe them.

    So they are not always a reliable means of determining a common paternal anestor?
    I made only general remarks, I did not read the book.
    - what are the %s of "Jewidh" or "Iberian" HT's among the total supposed Scottish persons involved in the survey?
    - "Iberian DNA"? It's their thought. I repeat I don't rely too much upon STR's, I prefer SNP's by far; too less STR's markers CANNOT certify either Iberian or Scottish type of Haplo. SI if we rely on their genealogic researches, I don't rely on their genetic research concerning close affiliation.
    Concenring Jews in Scotland, I find curious they kept on as cryto-Jews if Scotland was so open to Jews... But who knows?
    All this is just my thoughts for now, Ihave no sound opinion, waiting to know more.
    Thanks for answer.

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastAnglian View Post
    Let's see, where do we find DF27 in Europe?

    France
    Denmark
    Brittany

    So not beyond the realms of possibility.
    Possible. But perhaps they did not wait Normans to reach these lands at low levels. I'm almost sure DF27 reached Iberia through France, coming from the bulk of P312, East France and Southern Germany.

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