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Thread: L21 new paper

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    L21 new paper

    Hi All,

    Just came across this, by Dr. Joe Flood, who seems to have impressive credentials. Some very interesting stuff:

    https://www.academia.edu/24686284/Th...redistribution

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    He relies much on distribution data... On it's face appears to be conjecture based on primarily on questionable data.
    Harris of Pennsylvania R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a5c3d
    R-L21 (DF13+, DF21+, S5488+, +Z16294, +ZZ21, +S19938, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314-, P66-, L144-, L159-, L193-, Z246-, L642-, L641-, L720-, L876-, L1336-, L130-, S190-, S3058-, PF4252-, Z162981-, Z16282-)

    mtDNA:K1d (K1-T16362C)

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    There's some dubious stuff in there, some of which I have seen Joe post here at Anthrogenica before. He thinks L21 arose in a "Beaker colony" in what is now SW England, and, even worse, he thinks U106 arose in what is now SE England.

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    Dr. Flood has chosen to engage on the R1b-L21-project yahoo group.
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/31891

    Flood's paper, p. 2 -
    "The distributional evidence for a British origin for L21 around 2500 BC is compelling. Most likely the mutation originated in the large Beaker colony in south-west Britain, where many old lineages still survive. From that spread point it was carried rapidly by sea into north-west France, Ireland, north-west Spain and the Middle Rhine, which today have a high incidence of L21, and into Northern England and Scotland. Of about 45 known early Bronze branches or subclades of L21, almost all are found in Britain or in the English-speaking Diaspora. We are able to identify most of the larger subclades of L21 as ‘Atlantic’—spread throughout the Atlantic Beaker range with a distinct presence in Cornwall-Devon in the early Bronze. Continental R-L21 has origins in small random samples from the extensive English distribution. While many studies have tried to identify continental contributions to Isles populations, here we suggest that the reverse was much greater, at least in the early Bronze Age."


    I'm going to see if I can ferret out the Cornwall-Devon Beakers versus the Wessex in South-Central England. I don't know if they are one and the same but if they are different then we have to consider the Wessex connections to the Rhenish folks and Unetice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Dr. Flood has chosen to engage on the R1b-L21-project yahoo group.
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/31891

    Flood's paper, p. 2 -

    I'm going to see if I can ferret out the Cornwall-Devon Beakers versus the Wessex in South-Central England. I don't know if they are one and the same but if they are different then we have to consider the Wessex connections to the Rhenish folks and Unetice.
    Flood is talking about the Wessex and and Atlantic Beakers as one and the same. I'm not sure how that ties to what I think of as "Atlantic" Beakers who have been labeled rather as "Maritime" Beakers.

    Wessex and the Salisbury plain look a little like South-Central England to the untrained eye (mine) but it a part of the official South West Region of England, so Sout West is the correct name.

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    I've just started reading through the paper. Of particular interest to me, of course, is his discussion of DF49, which he seems to associate with the Dumnonii/Damnonii/Fir Domnann. I'll admit that it makes some sense of the present day dispersal of DF49 (although he incorrectly locates the Damnonii in Argyll). I'm still not sure we have enough data to say much about tribal associations.

    I'm also wondering why he sees R-L21 moving to the Rhine from the Isles rather than to the Isles of the Rhine, which makes far more sense to me. Part of the problem, which you've touched upon, Mike, is his fuzzy terminology (Atlantic Beakers?) and the absence of discussion surrounding Rhenish beakers. On page 8 Flood actually speaks of maritime colonies on the Rhine. He may not be using the word "maritime" in its technical sense but, either way, his choice of words obscures the very real differences between Maritime and Rhenish Beakers and the cultures represented by each. I don't know if this is a rhetorical choice that the author has made to further the cause of the "Celtic from the West" stance or if he is simply unaware of the distinction. Hopefully he will elaborate.

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    I have just finished reading the paper.

    I am glad someone has put so much work into trying to describe the history of L21.
    I agree with Mike that is is a great platform on which to discuss the issues of L21.

    I agree with many of the findings which are supported by the latest papers, POBI, Irish DNA Atlas (preliminary findings), Cassidy (Rathlin), Hallast (Y Tree Expansion), Tyler Smith (R1b expansion), Celtic from the West (1,2,3?) etc. I have issues with others eg back migrations and some continental L21.

    It validates the idea that pre prints are a great way of engaging citizen scientists.

    I have documented my analysis of L21 both upstream and downstream here:

    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-m269/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l23/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l51/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l11/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-u106/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-p312/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-df27/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-u152-l2/

    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...l21-df13-z253/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...l21-df13-z255/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...l21-df13-df49/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...l21-df13-df21/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...l21-df13-l513/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...21-df13-c4466/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...21-df13-l1335/
    https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorc...l21-df13-df41/

    I will update the boards to reflect the new data.
    I look forward to more ancient DNA in the Isles and Atlantic Europe and the trail from the Steppes to the Atlantic.
    I believe the Balkans will be a key part of the Yamnaya downstream puzzle and Maikop the upstream and we need a paper dedicated to Bell Beaker DNA.
    Last edited by Heber; 05-06-2016 at 07:44 PM.
    Gerard Corcoran
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  13. #8
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    Here is some additional regional analysis.

    Atlantic DNA
    http://pin.it/qTlNUyi

    Britains DNA
    http://pin.it/UN0XruO

    England DNA
    http://pin.it/ycIcKRy

    Europe DNA
    http://pin.it/05kjsOS

    France DNA
    http://pin.it/h2kFBQX

    Germany DNA
    http://pin.it/riJvBbW

    Iberian DNA
    http://pin.it/jJNoCkQ

    Irish DNA
    http://pin.it/R5LK0Df

    Irish DNA Atlas
    http://pin.it/y1NlgQx

    Connacht DNA
    http://pin.it/22kg8vf

    Leinster DNA
    http://pin.it/XMpHCbS

    Midlands DNA
    http://pin.it/QN3t7Ah

    Munster DNA
    http://pin.it/QzI73VV

    Ulster DNA
    http://pin.it/n6liwnn

    Irish Insular Atlantic Genome
    http://pin.it/fK45QoS

    Isles DNA
    http://pin.it/ereb0lg

    People of the British Isles
    http://pin.it/Lz0VuCA
    Gerard Corcoran
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  14. #9
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    I am looking back at Joe's paper in light of what has come out in the intervening period. I have always been intrigued with the point he makes about a number of residual (or unbranching) subclades that suddenly burst into life around 2000 years ago.

    "...somewhere around 100 BC, two residual subclades of L21 appeared from obscurity and began branching. They were L1335 ‘Scottish modal’ and Z255 ‘Irish Sea’, to use the STR cluster names under which they were first discovered. These were accompanied at the same time by nine equally obscure branches of major Atlantic subclades that had also been residual since the early Bronze Age— DF49>M222 ‘Irish type I’, DF21>Z3000 ‘Clan Colla’, FGC11134>CTS4466 ‘Irish Type II’, Z253>L225 ‘Irish Type III’, Z253>CTS9251 ‘Irish Type IV’ and L513>L193 ‘Little Scottish’"


    This is part of personal interest as I am part of one of them (Z255) but I am also curious about where they all come from. I probably am in the camp that the R-L21 came from the western continent to the islands but am wondering whether some branches were not left behind on the continent and then arrived later in the Iron Age.

    Some of these subclades were associated with leadership roles in fairly important groups so it could be that a few single men with almost no male relations rose to prominence in different places around the same time (in a highly patrilineal society) or that they are new arrivals whose source is a place where modern people do not really take dna tests (ydna in this case, so going out on a limb probably NW France) and hence there are branches but a testing bias does not allow these to be currently seen.

    Only finding more ancient dna will tell but are there other options for these long residual SNP lines that I am missing?

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    Thumbs up

    Look back a few posts: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post153213

    I wouldn't rely on anything Joe Flood has to say.

    There's certainly no good reason to dredge up this thread, which had lain dormant for over four years.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-04-2020 at 07:54 PM.

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