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Thread: Samaritan GEDmatch results: How does this shape our view of the pre-Islamic Levant?

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    Samaritan GEDmatch results: How does this shape our view of the pre-Islamic Levant?

    Samaritans are genetically an isolated group, and they seem close to Cypriots, other Levantines, and even to Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians and southern Italians according to the GEDmatch results.

    So what does this say about the pre-Islamic Levant, and what does it say about how we view Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews and Mediterranean islanders?

    Or are Samaritans not a good proxy for the pre-Arab Levant?


    Person #1:

    Eurogenes K15:


    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 41.92
    2 West_Asian 17.22
    3 Red_Sea 13.36
    4 West_Med 10.98
    5 Atlantic 10.48
    6 Northeast_African 3.35
    7 Baltic 2.02
    8 Oceanian 0.67

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Samaritan 7.48
    2 Lebanese_Muslim 7.58
    3 Tunisian_Jewish 7.86
    4 Palestinian 8.08
    5 Syrian 8.24
    6 Cyprian 8.6
    7 Jordanian 8.99
    8 Lebanese_Christian 9.11
    9 Lebanese_Druze 11.18
    10 Sephardic_Jewish 11.23
    11 Libyan_Jewish 11.88
    12 Bedouin 12.51
    13 Algerian_Jewish 13.12
    14 Italian_Jewish 13.46
    15 Kurdish_Jewish 13.97
    16 Iranian_Jewish 14.22
    17 Assyrian 15.96
    18 South_Italian 17.03
    19 Egyptian 17.18
    20 Ashkenazi 18.15


    Dodecad K12b:

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 43.33
    2 Southwest_Asian 24.48
    3 Atlantic_Med 17.11
    4 Gedrosia 6.49
    5 Northwest_African 4.89
    6 North_European 1.37
    7 East_African 1.3
    8 South_Asian 0.7
    9 Southeast_Asian 0.34

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lebanese (Behar) 7.23
    2 Druze (HGDP) 7.68
    3 Syrians (Behar) 9.7
    4 Cypriots (Behar) 9.86
    5 Jordanians (Behar) 9.91
    6 Palestinian (HGDP) 10.53
    7 Samaritians (Behar) 11.04
    8 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 13.28
    9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 13.45
    10 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 15.36
    11 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 16.22
    12 Assyrian (Dodecad) 16.68
    13 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 16.86
    14 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 17.18
    15 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 17.33
    16 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 17.86
    17 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 17.99
    18 Turkish (Dodecad) 18.45
    19 Turks (Behar) 19.32
    20 Armenian (Dodecad) 19.38


    PuntDNA-L K12:

    # Population Percent
    1 Anatolian_NF 40.68
    2 Caucasus_HG 29.21
    3 Near_East 20.62
    4 European_HG 4.67
    5 Sub-Saharan 1.32
    6 South_African_HG 1.11
    7 Oceanian 0.9
    8 East_Asian 0.8
    9 South_Asian 0.38
    10 Siberian 0.32

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cypriot 4.98
    2 Lebanese 8.16
    3 Tunisian_Jew 8.85
    4 Druze 9.02
    5 Moroccan_Jew 9.92
    6 Libyan_Jew 10.06
    7 Turkish_Jew 10.31
    8 Syrian 10.86
    9 Palestinian 11.24
    10 Sicilian_East 12.23
    11 Jordanian 12.31
    12 Assyrian 12.68
    13 Iraqi_Jew 13.22
    14 Ashkenazi_Jew 13.3
    15 Sicilian_West 14.04
    16 BedouinA 14.41
    17 Iranian_Jew 14.67
    18 Turkish_Kayseri 15.93
    19 Egyptian 17.7
    20 Turkish 18.09


    Gedrosia K15:

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Asian 31.6
    2 Caucuses 30.39
    3 EEF 21.59
    4 WHG 5.06
    5 E_African 4.72
    6 Kalash 2.5
    7 Balochi 2.4
    8 Onge 0.92
    9 Paniya 0.81

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cypriot 5.53
    2 Lebanese 10.96
    3 Assyrian 13.54
    4 Iraqi_Jew 13.82
    5 Ashkenazi_Jew 14.32
    6 Jordanian 15.68
    7 Iranian_Jew 16.14
    8 Sicilian 17.52
    9 Turkish 17.54
    10 Georgian_Jew 18.19
    11 Syrian 19.15
    12 Kurd_N 21.47
    13 Armenian 22.44
    14 BedouinA 22.64
    15 Kurd_C 23
    16 Greek 23.52
    17 Iranian 23.82
    18 Palestinian 24.05
    19 Albanian 27.21
    20 Bulgarian 34.48




    Person #2:

    Eurogenes K15:


    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 48.28
    2 West_Asian 19.26
    3 West_Med 13.19
    4 Red_Sea 10.7
    5 Atlantic 5.25
    6 Northeast_African 1.44
    7 Baltic 1.35
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.52
    9 Siberian 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lebanese_Christian 3.55
    2 Samaritan 4.81
    3 Lebanese_Druze 6.47
    4 Cyprian 8.39
    5 Lebanese_Muslim 8.87
    6 Palestinian 9.72
    7 Syrian 10.57
    8 Kurdish_Jewish 11.1
    9 Jordanian 11.49
    10 Iranian_Jewish 12.36
    11 Tunisian_Jewish 13.04
    12 Assyrian 14.43
    13 Libyan_Jewish 14.51
    14 Sephardic_Jewish 16.1
    15 Bedouin 16.5
    16 Algerian_Jewish 16.82
    17 Italian_Jewish 17.28
    18 Georgian_Jewish 18.5
    19 South_Italian 20.59
    20 Egyptian 20.8


    Dodecad K12b:


    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 47
    2 Southwest_Asian 22.84
    3 Atlantic_Med 17.59
    4 Gedrosia 8.35
    5 Northwest_African 2.85
    6 East_African 0.76
    7 East_Asian 0.59
    8 Sub_Saharan 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Druze (HGDP) 5.44
    2 Cypriots (Behar) 7.7
    3 Lebanese (Behar) 8.94
    4 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 11.46
    5 Syrians (Behar) 11.7
    6 Samaritians (Behar) 11.93
    7 Jordanians (Behar) 12.71
    8 Assyrian (Dodecad) 13.49
    9 Palestinian (HGDP) 13.72
    10 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 14.12
    11 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 14.23
    12 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 14.25
    13 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.77
    14 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 15.68
    15 Armenian (Dodecad) 15.9
    16 Turkish (Dodecad) 16.8
    17 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) 17.23
    18 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 17.52
    19 Turks (Behar) 17.68
    20 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 19.11


    PuntDNA-L K12:

    # Population Percent
    1 Anatolian_NF 40.44
    2 Caucasus_HG 32.59
    3 Near_East 20.25
    4 European_HG 3.72
    5 Sub-Saharan 2.24
    6 East_Asian 0.65
    7 Amerindian 0.11

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cypriot 3.2
    2 Druze 6.01
    3 Lebanese 8.5
    4 Syrian 10.11
    5 Assyrian 10.45
    6 Palestinian 10.92
    7 Iraqi_Jew 10.94
    8 Tunisian_Jew 11.69
    9 Jordanian 11.95
    10 Iranian_Jew 12.04
    11 Moroccan_Jew 12.31
    12 Libyan_Jew 12.8
    13 Turkish_Jew 12.83
    14 Sicilian_East 13.54
    15 Turkish_Kayseri 14.02
    16 Ashkenazi_Jew 14.19
    17 BedouinA 15.25
    18 Armenian 15.46
    19 Sicilian_West 15.87
    20 Georgian_Jew 16.05



    Gedrosia K15:

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucuses 32.04
    2 SW_Asian 26.27
    3 EEF 23.81
    4 Balochi 6.56
    5 WHG 4.85
    6 W_African 1.64
    7 Paniya 1.26
    8 SE_Asian 0.98
    9 Kalash 0.88
    10 E_African 0.65
    11 Burusho 0.49
    12 Siberian 0.38
    13 Onge 0.18

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Cypriot 8.64
    2 Ashkenazi_Jew 13.07
    3 Assyrian 13.74
    4 Turkish 14.03
    5 Sicilian 14.89
    6 Lebanese 15.64
    7 Iraqi_Jew 16.4
    8 Iranian_Jew 17.82
    9 Georgian_Jew 18.33
    10 Kurd_N 18.9
    11 Armenian 19.98
    12 Jordanian 20.3
    13 Kurd_C 20.45
    14 Greek 20.7
    15 Iranian 20.85
    16 Syrian 23.14
    17 Albanian 24.57
    18 BedouinA 28.48
    19 Palestinian 29.09
    20 Bergamo 32.04

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  3. #2
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    both of them have low 1-2% baltic to low
    compared to aschenazi who show 9-10% in eurogenes k13
    the smaraitans inline with sefhardics who also have very low baltic.{1-2%}
    bottom line aschenazi aquired this baltic in diaspora in ukraine poland.
    regards
    adam

    p.s the baltic component was not native to the levant .....

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    They might turn out to be a good proxy, the main problem with using them as a proxy for the pre-exilic Judean population so far is that they're heavily drifted, not unlike Ashkenazi Jews they do not encapsulate their parent population's full diversity. In that sense, even using Palestinians would make more sense. Also, they did move a lot more than they'd have you believe, there once was such a thing as a Samaritan diaspora, the oldest synagogue we know of so far might well have been a Samaritan one, and even more recently there were many Samaritans living in Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey and Syria (that would explain why many Western Jews, Ashkenazim & Sephardim, share IBD segments with Samaritans who do not have recent Jewish ancestry).

    Again, Gedmatch calculators are no substitute for ancient data.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    First person is 3/4 Samaritan + 1/4 Ashkenazi Jew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    They might turn out to be a good proxy, the main problem with using them as a proxy for the pre-exilic Judean population so far is that they're heavily drifted, not unlike Ashkenazi Jews they do not encapsulate their parent population's full diversity. In that sense, even using Palestinians would make more sense. Also, they did move a lot more than they'd have you believe, there once was such a thing as a Samaritan diaspora, the oldest synagogue we know of so far might well have been a Samaritan one, and even more recently there were many Samaritans living in Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey and Syria (that would explain why many Western Jews, Ashkenazim & Sephardim, share IBD segments with Samaritans who do not have recent Jewish ancestry).

    Again, Gedmatch calculators are no substitute for ancient data.
    lol
    Does that mean this is actually legit?
    Attachment 30795

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    lol
    Does that mean this is actually legit?
    Attachment 30795
    Technically-speaking, yes. This individual is from the Marhiv family, fully Samaritan IIRC.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Technically-speaking, yes. This individual is from the Marhiv family, fully Samaritan IIRC.
    Crazy!
    So potentially there’s minor segments of Samaritan dna randomly floating around the gene pool of western Jews?
    I’m guessing 4/500 year back through maybe Turkish Sephardim,Syrian jews and Egyptian Ashkenazim perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Crazy!
    So potentially there’s minor segments of Samaritan dna randomly floating around the gene pool of western Jews?
    I’m guessing 4/500 year back through maybe Turkish Sephardim,Syrian jews and Egyptian Ashkenazim perhaps?
    IIRC, Agamemnon has mentioned a particular Y subclade or two of possible Samaritan origin among Western Jews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Crazy!
    So potentially there’s minor segments of Samaritan dna randomly floating around the gene pool of western Jews?
    I’m guessing 4/500 year back through maybe Turkish Sephardim,Syrian jews and Egyptian Ashkenazim perhaps?
    The working assumption is that the Samaritan diaspora, by definition outside the land of Israel, was largely incorporated into the Jewish diaspora. The reasons for this are that after the destruction of the Temple, Judaism became a mobile religion while Samaritanism (despite the Samaritan temple on Har Gerizim having been destroyed by the Hasmoneans) became increasingly localised and sectarian, this eventually led to the Samaritan revolts (in which the remnants of native Palestinian Jewry participated).

    From a population of roughly one million, the Samaritans went down to less than ~150 souls by the 20th century. Much of this can be ascribed to severe persecution under the Byzantines (the repression was very much akin to a genocide) and the Islamic caliphates and kingdoms that followed, the Samaritans were not part of the Islamic category of "Ahl al Kitab" (people of the book) and therefore not subjected to dhimma which led to persecution at the hand of the Fatimid Shi'ites and the Abbasids, there was a short period of relief under the Mamluks which ended with the Ottomans (for the Jews it was the other way around, with the Mamluks victimising the Jews and the Ottomans putting an end to outbursts of anti-Jewish violence). So the Samaritans generally had it worse than the Jews who, despite all their misery, still "enjoyed" dhimmi status while the Samaritans did not (probably because there was no Samaritan presence in Arabia, and so the first generations of Muslims would not have known about the Samaritans' existence). As you can imagine, there was intense pressure to leave the Samaritan community in such circumstances, when the Samaritans were not dying they were converting to Islam.

    Unlike Arabia, we know that there was a Samaritan presence in the Mediterranean. These communities established themselves before the Samaritans made it compulsory to spend every Shabbat in the land of Israel (which in the traditional Mosaic definition of the time included parts of what is now southern Lebanon and SW Syria, hence why the Damascene Samaritans were not considered part of the Samaritan diaspora). These communities did not survive long enough in exile to see the adoption of Christianity throughout the Roman empire, the only thing that can really account for the swift disappearance of these communities is their inclusion into a growing Jewish diaspora (which did not make it compulsory to spend Shabbat in the land of Israel and offer sacrifices at the Temple in Jerusalem for the 3 major pilgrimages, primarily because the Temple was no longer standing).

    So I'd surmise that almost all Western Jews have some degree of Samaritan ancestry, even if they do not share segments with present-day Samaritans. The reason for this is that while the Samaritans are the best present-day proxy for Israelite ancestry amongst Jews, they do not reflect their parent population's full diversity as they are in effect a very small and inbred subset of a once much larger Samaritan population. The fact that many do share segments with Samaritans is just further indication that Western Jews have Samaritan ancestry. As a matter of fact, the Yehoshua-Marhiv clan's (which claims descent from the tribe of Ephraim) Y-DNA lineage is J1-FGC30542, a branch of Z642 which is found in a minority of Syrian and Dutch Jews (the latter of Sephardic origin), in their case it's almost a given that they are either (1) of non-Judean Israelite descent, possible scenarios include northern refugees during the Assyrian campaigns at the end of the 8th century BCE or (2) of Samaritan descent.

    I honestly think we are underestimating the various origins of Western Jewry's Levantine component, the Y-DNA data does suggest that it isn't all Judean, at the very least a minor portion is bound to be Israelite, Samaritan, Idumean, Iturean and probably even Nabatean.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-05-2019 at 09:59 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    lol
    Does that mean this is actually legit?
    Attachment 30795
    I share 4.5cM with the same guy, on a segment I share with many Ashkenazim and Sephardim.
    Target: mildlycurly_scaled
    Distance: 1.3578% / 0.01357814
    57.0 Irish
    37.6 English
    2.6 Roma_Barcelona
    1.8 Ashkenazi_Germany
    1.0 Roma_Granada


    Current research interest(s): The Viscontis of Milan

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