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Thread: Clan Menzies in Scotland : E-M81 ?

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    Clan Menzies in Scotland : E-M81 ?

    At FtDna, I have two "Big Y" E-M81 matches with two people of Scottish origin named Menzies. Both of them, who are not closely related, belong to E-M81 (same subclade A-930) and have their paternal ancestors from Scotland (18th Century).

    At 23andMe, an historian of Scottish origin named Menzies as well also belongs to E-M81 (unknown subclade) and says his paternal ancestry is from Clan Menzies.

    According to historians, ancestors of Menzies came to northern France with Vikings, settled in a french village called Mesnieres (Normandie), then in medieval times came to England, where the name changed to Manners, with a branch going to Scotland and changing the spelling to Menyers and finally Menzies.

    http://www.menzies.org/history/history_full.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Menzies

    Of course these 3 people may also descend from a common Scottish ancestor that may not be linked to this Clan, but nevertherless it is quite interesting to find some E-M81 so far in Northern Europe.

    It would be great to have some Y-Dna tested from Normandy in France, especially the region of Mesnieres, to see if some E-M81, that belong to same subclade A930, are found which could support this clan Menzies origin.
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 04-29-2016 at 10:03 PM.
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    Interestingly as the two individuals who tested with BigY are from Australia and seem to descend from the same common Scottish ancestor than Robert Menzies (1894-1978), Australia’s longest-serving Prime Minister to date, it means that very likely Robert Menzies was also E-M81.
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    If your surname is also Menzies, please post your Y-Dna haplogroup
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  6. #4
    Two years later someone answers haha.

    So, the question of origins could hopefully be defined more if there was a Menzies DNA project at FTDNA and more male Menzies participation.

    The Menzies surname came from Normandy and is an offshoot of the Manners surname and later built its place in the highlands. ItÂ’s interesting to note that the Norman invaders were a mix of cultures, not just Scandinavian in origin. If the surname Menzies originated from a single line of de Maynoers and bunch of families associated with that line, then those families may have come from a mix of several haplogroup backgrounds. In addition, itÂ’s known that others have adopted the Menzies surname over the years for various reasons. But if youÂ’re looking for haplogroups associated with the Normans, the ones to look for are: Viking I1, I2b, R1a1a, R1b1b2 (U106)...and then the Gallic French R1b (DF21, U152, M167), I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

    What would be interesting is comparing a robust sampling of members with the Manners surname and the Menzies surname to see if there are any matching lines. Right now though, thereÂ’s a lack of either on FTDNA, leading back to the original point above - the Menzies need their own DNA project and more Menzies (and Manners) males need to take a 67+ marker y-test.

    Last, I ordered an SNP test and will hopefully repost on here if itÂ’s been confirmed. Right now though, my line is falling somewhere under the R1b umbrella.

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    E-M81 existed looooong before the invention of surnames, nor does the haplogroup have anything to do with Scotland.
    DNA Tribes

    Balto - North Slavic 22.4%
    Northwest European 18.8%
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    Basque 4.3%
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    Urals 1.3%
    Finnish 1.2%
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    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tz85 View Post
    E-M81 existed looooong before the invention of surnames.
    Like all haplogroups but it does not matter, this is just here that the Clan Menzies (https://www.houseofnames.com/mingie-family-crest) was founded by Robert de Manieres, a Norman from Mesnieres, near Rouen, Normandy and he might have been E-M81.
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 07-16-2018 at 05:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rz1706 View Post
    At FtDna, I have two "Big Y" E-M81 matches with two people of Scottish origin named Menzies. Both of them, who are not closely related, belong to E-M81 (same subclade A-930) and have their paternal ancestors from Scotland (18th Century).

    At 23andMe, an historian of Scottish origin named Menzies as well also belongs to E-M81 (unknown subclade) and says his paternal ancestry is from Clan Menzies.

    According to historians, ancestors of Menzies came to northern France with Vikings, settled in a french village called Mesnieres (Normandie), then in medieval times came to England, where the name changed to Manners, with a branch going to Scotland and changing the spelling to Menyers and finally Menzies.

    http://www.menzies.org/history/history_full.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Menzies

    Of course these 3 people may also descend from a common Scottish ancestor that may not be linked to this Clan, but nevertherless it is quite interesting to find some E-M81 so far in Northern Europe.

    It would be great to have some Y-Dna tested from Normandy in France, especially the region of Mesnieres, to see if some E-M81, that belong to same subclade A930, are found which could support this clan Menzies origin.
    The Professor Jones from Leicester found men in NW Normandy( Cotentin) belonging to E-M81 ( no subclade)

    If you want to know more, the samples are probably always in Leicester. Being one of these tested men, our results are not updated and if that is the case, no news!!!

    If this haplogroup is present in the Cotentin peninsula why not in Mesnieres
    Recent Ancestry, full Normand. Known Genealogy 7/8 of the Cotentin peninsula 1/8 region of Coutances. Unfortunately, there are many missing branches on the maternal side.

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    I would recommend that anyone via a Scottish clan that claims Norman roots reads the following, written by William David Hamilton Sellar, Lord Lyon King of Arms (2008-14):

    The following is taken from 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making and Pedigree Faking':
    "Families of undoubted Celtic descent began to claim Norman ancestors".
    A later passage reads: "In Gaelic society, a pedigree was a political statement, and not infrequently an exercise in political propaganda. Because antiquity was at a premium, forgery and manipulation , some of it very skilful, became commonplace."
    Many Scots use the suspect manuscript MS1467 as evidence for ancient roots.

  14. #9
    I think the prospect of proving Norman pedrigree without a paper trail would be incredibly difficult. You can get clues that give you a higher probability, but without a paper trail to back up DNA, it would be hard to claim a definitive yes.

    Unfortunately in the Menzies case, their early records were torched in 1502 when their castle was sacked. They went and sacked their assaulters back, but the damage was done. Interesting that over 500 years later, the real tragedy was the loss of records.

    So how could you prove Norman ancestry? Maybe getting someone who’s proven to be in the chief’s line to volunteer a spit sample and a Big-Y? Maybe discover the Menzies have a particular subclade that is unique to them and also can be found in France where people tested who were from the lines of Norman invaders. I’m not entirely sure how to go about that.

    What would be equally interesting and easier to prove is what special haplogroups the Menzies brought into the highlands. Tz85 is onto something in that E-M81 is not a traditional “Scottish” haplogroup. But once again, the Menzies were not originally from the highlands and very few have tested. So what if a good number of the line came back in the E haplogroup or U152 “Italo Celts”? Then you have some haplogroups that probably at some point we’re in the highlands that according to current records, weren’t supported to be there.
    Last edited by RandomUsernameGuy; 07-17-2018 at 03:24 AM. Reason: Grammatical error

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomUsernameGuy View Post
    I think the prospect of proving Norman pedrigree without a paper trail would be incredibly difficult. You can get clues that give you a higher probability, but without a paper trail to back up DNA, it would be hard to claim a definitive yes.

    Unfortunately I’m the Menzies case, their early records were torched in 1502 when their castle was sacked. They went and sacked their assaulters back, but the damage was done. Interesting that over 500 years later, the real tragedy was the loss of records.

    So how could you prove Norman ancestry? Maybe getting someone who’s proven to be in the chief’s line to volunteer a spit sample and a Big-Y? Maybe discover the Menzies have a particular subclade that is unique to them and also can be found in France where people tested who were from the lines of Norman invaders. I’m not entirely sure how to go about that.

    What would be equally interesting and easier to prove is what special haplogroups the Menzies brought into the highlands. Tz85 is onto something in that E-M81 is not a traditional “Scottish” haplogroup. But once again, the Menzies were not originally from the highlands and very few have tested. So what if a good number of the line came back in the E haplogroup or U152 “Italo Celts”? Then you have some haplogroups that probably at some point we’re in the highlands that according to current records, weren’t supported to be there.
    E-M81 existed thousands of years prior to the invention of surnames. Tying a surname to YDNA is pointless.
    DNA Tribes

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    Northwest European 18.8%
    Italian Greek 18.1%
    Persian Jewish 9%
    Iberian 6.3%
    Ashkenazi Jewish 5.9%
    Basque 4.3%
    Sephardic Jewish 4.1%
    Balochi Punjab 3.7%
    Caucasus 2.5%
    Urals 1.3%
    Finnish 1.2%
    Lebanese Cypriot 1%
    Other 1.4%

    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
    Lithuania 15.7%
    Russia Voronezh 7%
    Belgium 5.6%
    Syrian Jewish 4.9%
    Libyan Jewish 4.4%
    Russia Tver 2.4%
    Azerbaijani Jewish 2.2%

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