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Thread: What is the most numerous subclade of R1b among White French?

  1. #1
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    What is the most numerous subclade of R1b among White French?

    I know there is not a lot of study about genetics in France but according to FtDna, more than five thousands paternal lines tested so far are from France which is quite a lot.

    So based on that and the few genetic studies that reported R1b samples from France, do we have an estimation of R1b percentages for the most important subclades like U106, L21, U152 and DF27 among White French ?
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 04-30-2016 at 10:34 AM.
    G25 Davidski's Ancient scaled (Distance: 2.6158% R5P):
    50.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    26.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.9 MAR_Taforalt
    5.8 WHG
    5.1 Yoruba


    Eurogenes Basal-Rich K7:
    Basal-rich 43.73
    Villabruna-related 42.73
    Ancient_North_Eurasian 7.74
    Sub-Saharan 4.67
    East_Eurasian 1.02


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  2. #2
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    A few months ago, I did a count ...

    raw results:
    U152: 20.9%
    L21: 19.8%
    DF27: 16.4%
    U106: 9.6%
    R1b total: 66.7%

    But some French regions are over-represented (Northwest)
    Also, estimate according to the number of inhabitants by region:

    France:
    U152: 21.1%
    DF27: 18.0%
    L21: 15.6%
    U106: 9.5%
    R1b total: 64.1%


    North of France:
    L21: 24%
    U152: 15.7%
    DF27: 13.2%
    U106: 12.1%

    South of France:
    U152: 26.2%
    DF27: 22.6%
    L21: 7.8%
    U106: 7.1%
    Last edited by Tolan; 04-30-2016 at 11:52 AM.
    Y haplogroup: R1b: L21 --> DF13 --> BY145002
    The oldest L21 known are I2457 et I2565 from Stonehenge (Beaker Culture, 2400-1900 BC)

    MTDNA: U4c1
    The oldest U4c1 known are "poz224", Yamnaya culture (2882-2698 BC), and 2 Bell-Beaker in Germany (Karsdorf, 2314-2042 BC)

    Paternal MTDNA: K1b2b
    The oldest K1b2 are Eastern European Mesolithic: Kunda Donkalnis5 (Lithuania), 6000 BC and Meso-Ene Lepenski Vir Lepe28 in Serbia, 5900 BC.
    The oldest K1b2b is Alt-3, Corded-Ware Germany (2500 BC)

  3. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Tolan For This Useful Post:

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  4. #3
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    Thanks,

    I think R1b total at 64% seems indeed a bit high.

    I also found this study from Lucotte in 2015

    http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...?PaperID=53754
    http://html.scirp.org/file/_3-1590437_1.htm

    where R1b-M269 frequencies vary between 34% in South France and 72.2% in Basques.

    Basques 72.2%
    Montpellier 53.5%
    Lille 46.9%
    Nancy 46.2%
    Bretagne 46.2%
    Paris 38.8%
    Perpignan 34.2%
    Grasse 34.1%
    (Corse 24.1%)

    However I think Lucotte samples probably contain individuals with non European ancestry which can explain why R1b frequency is so low.

    In 2009, Ramos et al ("Phylogeography of French male lineages") found the below R1b-M269 frequencies in France which are much higher probably because as per the authors only "individuals with French surname" were analysed :

    Brittany 80.88%
    Nord-Pas-de-Calais 61.76%
    Midi-Pyrénées 59.69%
    Alsace 58.75%
    Île-de-France 56.05%
    Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur 55.55%
    Auvergne 52.8%
    *Average according real number of inhabitants per region (59.8%)
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 04-30-2016 at 01:17 PM.
    G25 Davidski's Ancient scaled (Distance: 2.6158% R5P):
    50.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    26.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.9 MAR_Taforalt
    5.8 WHG
    5.1 Yoruba


    Eurogenes Basal-Rich K7:
    Basal-rich 43.73
    Villabruna-related 42.73
    Ancient_North_Eurasian 7.74
    Sub-Saharan 4.67
    East_Eurasian 1.02


    G25 scaled:Hidden Content Hidden Content
    Commercial:Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content


    Hidden Content

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  6. #4
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    I think the results of Tolan are exact enough for the population of old French origin although I thought DF27 were the most important in France and specially in the South-West. Maybe there is a lack of testers from South-West and Centre of France.
    It is in accordance with the results of Myres (et al) for Provence and Balaresque (et al) for the West of France.
    For R1b, It needs to add 2 or 3% to take into account R1b (xP312, U106)
    For numerous French regions : Ile de France, Champagne, Picardie, Bourgogne, Berry, Auvergne, Languedoc, ... we have either no study or study not representative of the old French population (older than one century).

    For R-M269
    France Ille-et-Vilaine 82 80.5% Balaresque et al. (2009)[6]
    France Haute-Garonne 57 78.9% Balaresque et al. (2009)[6]
    France Finistère 75 76.0% Balaresque et al. (2009) (82% in a study of Brest University with a greater number and geographical samples in Finistere with a maximum in the inside country, weaker in the coastal towns )
    France Basques 61 75.4% Balaresque et al. (2009)
    France Vendée 50 68.0% Balaresque et al. (2009)[6]
    France Baie de Somme 43 62.8% Balaresque et al. (2009)[6]

    Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur (55,5%) in Ramos-Luis is not in accordance with Myres et al with rural samples and greater numbers : Bouches du Rhone (~200) 68%, Var (~75) 66% Vaucluse [~75) 61% Alpes de Haute Provence 80% for a smaller nunber ~35 .
    Other studies for Lyon and Strasbourg gave 66-67%


    I remind in Ramos-Luis for IDF (Parisian region), The result of hg E is 21.5% including 11% of typically sub-saharan haplogroups (A, B , ExE1b1b) which shows they integrate the population coming from french departments outside Europe with a French name. This gives a doubt for the other regional results except Brittany.

    Lucotte was a great scientist but his last study shows a lot of absurd results for France, but also for Europe.
    Last edited by palamede; 04-30-2016 at 09:28 PM.

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