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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

  1. #31
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    In this case, the PC steppe has the most variance hands down
    Is it a joke? You know that we don't have any aDNA from the Middle East so far.

    Nothingness never tends to be diverse.

  2. #32
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    A most recent paper had the highest modern L23 variance as Bulgaria.
    The Balkans was one of pioneer areas in metallurgy indeed (apart from the Levant).

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Odds are J (J2 in particular) had more to do with the diffusion of metallurgy than R1b-M269.
    I agree that odds are that J2 also had something to do with it, but alongside R1b-M269.



    But the problem is that J2 is 28,000 years old (TMRCA) - so you need to specify which subclades are young and widespread enough to be involved in the spread of metallurgy, like R1b-M269/L23 are.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 08:23 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I agree that odds are that J2 also had something to do with it, but alongside R1b-M269.



    But the problem is that J2 is 28,000 years old (TMRCA) - so you need to specify which subclades are young and widespread enough to be involved in the spread of metallurgy, like R1b-M269/L23 are.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/
    So it was alongside J2 and then the L23 men got DNA tested and separated themselves from J2 to re-populate the rest of Western Europe as Bell Beaker samples are all R1b and in areas like Ireland there is no J2?
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 05-03-2016 at 08:36 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #35
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    then the L23 men got DNA tested and separated themselves from J2
    Nope. Actually L51 men got DNA tested and separated themselves from L23(xL51).

    That's why Western Europeans today are all L51 and no Yamnaya L23(xL51).

    Even in Germany which is in Central Europe L23(xL51) is just 0.62% (Myres 2010).

    By comparison in Slovenia, Czech Rep., Poland L23(xL51) is ca. or over 5.0%.

    =======================

    BTW, guys L21, U152, DF27 and U106 also tested DNA and segregated themselves.

    So that they formed nice geographical clusters, for example Ireland was vastly L21.

    And Aryans, before moving to India, wiped out all of "impure" R1b from their ranks.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 08:49 PM.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Nope. Actually L51 men got DNA tested and separated themselves from L23(xL51).

    That's why Western Europeans today are all L51 and no Yamnaya L23(xL51).

    Even in Germany which is in Central Europe L23(xL51) is just 0.62% (Myres 2010).

    By comparison in Slovenia, Czech Rep., Poland L23(xL51) is ca. or over 5.0%.

    =======================

    BTW, guys L21, U152, DF27 and U106 also tested DNA and segregated themselves.

    So that they formed nice geographical clusters, for example Ireland was vastly L21.

    And Aryans, before moving to India, wiped out all of "impure" R1b from their ranks.
    No, I was being sarcastic... how exactly did a mixed group of J2 and R-L51 men separate themselves during the Copper Age to become 100% R1b+? The answer: they were never together.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  9. #37
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    Just like all other mixed groups separated themselves.

    The answer: they were never together.
    So the PIE community also never existed in your opinion?

    Because, you know, Lithuanians or Brahmins aren't R1b.

    And how did L51 separate from the rest of L23?

    Why is Western Europe entirely L51 ???

    Western Yamna was 100% L51, Eastern Yamna 100% L23(xL51) ???

    But how could it be the case, how did they separate?

    Shouldn't subclades and haplogroups be evenly distributed?

  10. #38
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    separate themselves during the Copper Age to become 100% R1b+?
    Who was allegedly 100% R1b+ ??? Yamna ???

    We are seeing only men buried in elite kurgans, not entire population. It's like checking only Viking graves from the Norman Kingdom of Sicily and then saying 100% of population were I1-M253, or something.

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Is it a joke? You know that we don't have any aDNA from the Middle East so far.

    Nothingness never tends to be diverse.
    If we go by sheer diversity, we have RISE546, RISE524 (who were both M269*), I0443 (who was L23*), I0124 (who was intermediate between P297 and M478) and I0122 (Khvalynsk) alongside all the Z2103 samples in Yamnaya which clearly suggests that M269 emerged on the steppe. And we actually do have aDNA from the Near East (Bronze Age Armenia, Neolithic Turkey and Mesolithic-Epipaleolithic Georgia), what we don't have is good coverage of the region's genetic prehistory coupled with a general absence of data outside Anatolia and the Transcaucasus.

    So yes, unless proof of the contrary shows up the steppe is R1b's diversity hotspot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I agree that odds are that J2 also had something to do with it, but alongside R1b-M269.



    But the problem is that J2 is 28,000 years old (TMRCA) - so you need to specify which subclades are young and widespread enough to be involved in the spread of metallurgy, like R1b-M269/L23 are.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/
    J2a is about as old as R1b, so I wouldn't worry about that if I were you. What I'd worry about is the lack of correlation between R1b-L23 and J2a since it really does a big disfavour to this theory of yours (and I'm not even mentioning ancient data here).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 05-03-2016 at 09:17 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #40
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    One of Armenian Bronze Age R1b-s was P297*.

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