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Thread: New DNA Papers

  1. #11
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    Some of the lowest levels of common ancestry are seen in the Italian and Iberian peninsulas, which may indicate different effects of historical population expansions in these areas and/or more stably structured populations.
    The existence of separate Franco-Cantabrian and Italian population refugia during the LGM might be a factor.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    The existence of separate Franco-Cantabrian and Italian population refugia during the LGM might be a factor.
    I doubt it. IBD cannot really go back that far. The authors are distinguishing between "Southeastern Europeans [who] share large numbers of common ancestors that date roughly to the era of the Slavic and Hunnic expansions around 1,500 years ago [= 500 AD], while most common ancestors that Italians share with other populations lived longer than 2,500 years ago [= 500 BC].

    It is just a thousand years difference, but it is very significant in distinguishing the Slavs, who had the most recent spread of IE speakers in Europe, from IE-speakers who had spread much earlier (but carried on intermingling after that.)

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     Marmaduke (05-08-2013)

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I doubt it. IBD cannot really go back that far. The authors are distinguishing between "Southeastern Europeans [who] share large numbers of common ancestors that date roughly to the era of the Slavic and Hunnic expansions around 1,500 years ago [= 500 AD], while most common ancestors that Italians share with other populations lived longer than 2,500 years ago [= 500 BC].

    It is just a thousand years difference, but it is very significant in distinguishing the Slavs, who had the most recent spread of IE speakers in Europe, from IE-speakers who had spread much earlier (but carried on intermingling after that.)
    I think that the paper demonstrated this:

    “The paper has been posted by David Faux on Rootsweb and it has done justice to me (like Gioiello, Maliclavelli etc.): the impact on Italian population of the Celtic invasion, of the Greek colonization, of the millions of slaves during the Roman Empire, of the Barbarian invasions (or, if you prefer, of the migrations of people or Voelkerwanderungen) etc. has been minimal, what I have always supported”.

    Then what I said in these years wasn’t a nationalist position or something similar. One score for me.

    About the Refugia it is another question and I have had also about this not nationalistic positions but scientific hypotheses that could be true or wrong. Thus I hope that like that they are taken.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The authors are distinguishing between "Southeastern Europeans [who] share large numbers of common ancestors that date roughly to the era of the Slavic and Hunnic expansions around 1,500 years ago [= 500 AD], while most common ancestors that Italians share with other populations lived longer than 2,500 years ago [= 500 BC].
    If it's that recent, then the LGM is irrelevant. My concern, though, is I haven't seen evidence that there is such a thing as reliable IBD in the 1500 ybp range. Segments of 7.5 cM and up seem to be as much as 500-750 ybp, while anything below that is too prone to be IBS to be reliably called IBD.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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     lgmayka (05-08-2013)

  7. #15
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    Perhaps the weakest aspect of the paper is its total dependence on samples gathered in London and Lausanne. In other words, the British and Swiss samples are truly native, whereas all the other samples are members of modern Euro-migrant communities. This may be a significant confounding factor, for two possible reasons:

    - Modern Euro-migrants may come primarily from the more urban and better educated strata of the home society--in other words, disproportionately from the descendants of the nobility and bourgeoisie, who were always more mobile and more intermarried. I suspect that modern Euro-migrants are less likely to come from rural areas dominated by the great-great-grandchildren of serfs. The net effect is that European populations will seem to be more closely related than they really are.

    - When rural people do migrate, they tend to bunch together based on their old home. (For example, both my grandmothers were from the same village in southern Poland even though my parents were born in Chicago.) So if the sampler is not careful, his 10 Polish samples may be 5 from Łącko and 5 from Dębica ! This will give the erroneous impression that all of Poland is infested with "inbreeding."

    The bottom line is that it is dangerous to make too many conclusions from such small, unrepresentative samples.

    By the way, I must point out that the authors totally ignored the one European population whose DNA may be most important to understanding the continent's history: Lithuanians. The paper did sample exactly one Latvian, but then inexplicably lumped him in with Swedes!

  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    If it's that recent, then the LGM is irrelevant. My concern, though, is I haven't seen evidence that there is such a thing as reliable IBD in the 1500 ybp range. Segments of 7.5 cM and up seem to be as much as 500-750 ybp, while anything below that is too prone to be IBS to be reliably called IBD.
    They say "Formal, model-based methods to infer IBD are only computationally feasible for very recent ancestry, but recently, fast heuristic algorithms have been developed that can be applied to thousands of samples typed on genotyping chips." This seems to translate as the ability to detect long segments that are nearly identical.

    They used the fastIBD method, implemented in BEAGLE v3.3.
    Last edited by Jean M; 05-08-2013 at 10:17 PM.

  9. #17
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    Thanks, Jean. I suppose I should actually read the paper before debating it with you.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  10. #18
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    The paper has plenty of figures with hard-to-read scales, but very few tables of actual numbers. Ordinarily, the raw data would be in supplementary spreadsheets, but I can find none of those. Are they somewhere else? Or will they be published later? I can find only two tables:

    Table 1 shows that the 22 sampled Poles share, on the average, 3.8 segments (of 1 cM or more) between themselves; and 1.5 segments with people from all other European countries, including Slavic countries. In contrast, the 213 sampled Italians share, on the average, only 0.6 segments between themselves; and only 0.5 segments with people from other European countries.

    Table 2 shows that Eastern Europeans (as defined in the paper) share, on the average, 2.57 segments between themselves; and 0.53 segments with Western Europeans.

    All of these are pairwise comparisons, between two individuals at a time.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 05-09-2013 at 03:51 AM.

  11. #19
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    Supporting information can be accessed from the list of contents on the left.

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Supporting information can be accessed from the list of contents on the left.
    No, I already tried that. Click on that, and it merely brings you to a list of figures (pictures). I am looking for actual data (numbers), not pictures. For example, Figure S3 has interesting information, but portrayed as a picture inside a PDF and quite unreadable to humans. Figure S8 might be useful except that it is not readable to computers--it has a bizarre .s008- suffix.

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