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Thread: Features of Z283 clade

  1. #1
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    Question Features of Z283 clade

    Hi All,
    I am interested if any visible features, significant differences to other groups are carried by Z283 group.
    Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Hi All,
    I am interested if any visible features, significant differences to other groups are carried by Z283 group.
    Thank you
    What do you mean by "visible features"? Are you looking for a specific phenotype that is characteristic for males from clade Z283? Or maybe you are just looking for characteristic STR results that would allow you to discriminate between the STR haplotypes associated with clade Z283 and those associated with other clades? Also, do you mean the entire clade Z283 or rather one of the paragroups under Z283, like Z283(xZ282) or Z283* (ie. Z283(xZ282,YP4758))?

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    Hi,
    Thank you for clarifying my question.
    I red some opinions that denies Z283 to be only associated with Slavs.
    Y2395 is within Z283 and it represents Nordic people. I think Z280 is Slavic per se. On the other hand there was no Scandinavians before glacier had retreated, so I assume they originate from the same location.

    Yes, I mean the entire clade Z283, but this was 6000 years ago, so a lot could change since then. For me it is quite hard to find any visible differences between Germanic L664 and Slavic Z280 group, so I assume phenotypes happen elsewhere.
    Last edited by JohnBravo; 05-06-2016 at 12:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Hi,
    Thank you for clarifying my question.
    I red some opinions that denies Z283 to be only associated with Slavs.
    Y2395 is within Z283 and it represents Nordic people. I think Z280 is Slavic per se. On the other hand there was no Scandinavians before glacier had retreated, so I assume they originate from the same location.

    Yes, I mean the entire clade Z283, but this was 6000 years ago, so a lot could change since then. For me it is quite hard to find any visible differences between Germanic L664 and Slavic Z280 group, so I assume phenotypes happen elsewhere.
    Clade Z283 was almost certainly a part of the Corded Ware horizon, so we can safely assume that the phenotype of the Corded Ware people was the one that was associated with the Z283 males at that very moment, ie. about 4500-5000 years ago. This is, however, no longer valid when comparing modern Z283 people from different regions of Europe (or elsewhere), as Y-DNA has almost no impact on phenotype, so the phenotypic picture is defined mostly by the autosomal profile of a given source population. One could of course suspect that modern populations showing higher frequency of Z283 (like the Slavs who show a lot of Z280 and M458) are more likely to resemble the original Corded Ware population than the North-Western Europeans who show Z283 (mostly Z284 and L664) at much lower frequency. However, this assumption does not need to be always true, as the Y-DNA lineages are much more likely to undergo either unusual expansion or nearly total extinction, while the autosomal profiles are much more likely to reflect the genuine level of genetic/phenotypic contribution of ancestral populations. As far as I remember, it is the modern Lithuanians who show most autosomal similarity to Corded Ware, even though they show less Z283 (and much more of the "Finno-Ugric-derived" haplogroup N1c) than the neighboring Slavic populations.

    BTW, I don't think the entire Z280 clade should be considered Slavic, or even Balto-Slavic, as apart from the two major "Balto-Slavic" subclades CTS1211 and Z92, there are some rare Western European subclades under Z280 that seem to have got nearly extinct following the collapse of the Central-Western European CWC sites (see for example such subclades under Z280 like S24902 or YP5000). In other words, Z280 should be considered "pre-Balto-Slavic" at best.

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    Ok, Thank you for your exhaustive explanation.
    From this I understand that autosomal profile is what we see, a completely independent "layer" while Y-DNA is kind of a fancy male thing like a hidden label, very useful to identify things in anthropological sense, but it's featureless.
    What it does then, what is its role? Is it just to maintain a genetic variety?
    Also I assume that Z283, Z282 or L1029 clade is no more as it keeps creating new subgroups all the time. Is this an infinite process?
    I believe that there must some unchangeable bit otherwise you would not be able to trace the path down the tree.
    What is the average population for each group before it starts dividing again. What triggers this? Is it in every generation?
    I assume that this way you can effectively identify your male ancestors. Do you encounter any duplicates? How much precision is in this research?
    I understand that females have their own X-DNA that serves the same purpose.
    Thank you again.
    Best regards,
    Last edited by JohnBravo; 05-07-2016 at 06:50 PM.

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    Deleted. It was supposed to be a separate thread, not a post here:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post155903
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-08-2016 at 09:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    From this I understand that autosomal profile is what we see, a completely independent "layer" while Y-DNA is kind of a fancy male thing like a hidden label, very useful to identify things in anthropological sense, but it's featureless.
    What it does then, what is its role? Is it just to maintain a genetic variety?
    There are of course some genes on chromosome Y that are essential for male fertility, so we cannot say that Y-DNA is absolutely "featureless". And there are many models trying to explain why sexual reproduction is favored by the evolution in so many species (but I won't go too deep into it).


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Also I assume that Z283, Z282 or L1029 clade is no more as it keeps creating new subgroups all the time. Is this an infinite process?
    Yes, but only if assuming that the world (or life itself) is infinite. And clade Z283 will always remain Z283 despite becoming divided into more and more descending subclades.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    I believe that there must some unchangeable bit otherwise you would not be able to trace the path down the tree.
    Well, it all depends on what your "ancient" reference points are, and whether enough of the descending lineages have survived to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    What is the average population for each group before it starts dividing again. What triggers this? Is it in every generation?
    There is no rule for that. You can imagine many potential scenarios, and even in case there were some most common models for each specific period in human (pre)history, those models were likely changing with every significant modification regarding the civilization level, social structure, style of life, environmental factors, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    I assume that this way you can effectively identify your male ancestors. Do you encounter any duplicates? How much precision is in this research?
    Occasionally, there are some recurrent mutations, but they are generally very rare, especially when analyzing the mutations in relatively stable (ie. non-repetitive) regions only. Also, when analyzing many mutations at once (like when using the NGS technology or SNP arrays), it is relatively easy to identify a recurrent mutation (or a revertant).


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    I understand that females have their own X-DNA that serves the same purpose.
    Chromosomes X are full of genes important for both sexes, and thus X-DNA substantially contributes to our phenotype. However, chromosomes X undergo recombination (like autosomes), so X-DNA cannot be analyzed (in genealogy) the same way as Y-DNA.

    BTW, since males have only one chromosome X per each cell, we are more vulnerable to the effect of potential mutations in X-DNA, and this applies to both the positive and negative effects. This is why both "geniuses" and "idiots" are less frequent among the females (as they always have one more chromosome X with a "backup copy" of each gene).

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  12. #8
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    Well, it all depends on what your "ancient" reference points are, and whether enough of the descending lineages have survived to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree.
    Do you mean that in some cases you can literally "lose track"?
    I understand that you require a decent number of samples from people of the same subgroup to be able to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree.
    Also I understand that periods of major wars and migrations complicates your research.

    Have you come across any bizarre results?
    I understand decoding female genealogy is much harder.
    At this moment of time can you prescribe any DNA test for them that can prove their lineages?

    I know that this is nothing to do with Z283 but I was always curious why orthodox Jews consider only females as the carriers of their Jewish lineage. I am not sure how old is this custom, but I was suspecting that after few millennia of their long history they've noticed some patterns since they are a quite isolated community regardless of the location.

    Best regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Do you mean that in some cases you can literally "lose track"?
    Well, even when reconstructing the "genealogical tree" encompassing all known living organisms (including all kinds of bacteria) that are currently known to us, we won't be able to reconstruct the earlier stages (for which no "brother clades" have survived) using the same approach.

    Also, for every part of the tree where we have a very long line with no sign of divergence (ie. with no sign of producing any brother clades surviving till today), we are not only unable to reconstruct the order of SNPs arising between the upstream and downstream nodes but this also makes us a bit lost when trying to guess the ancient location of our ancestors, so only the aDNA results can help us with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Also I understand that periods of major wars and migrations complicates your research.
    I wouldn't say so. If there were no wars nor migrations, then all our human ancestors would stay in one place in Africa, so it would be very hard to find any motivation for further research. Actually, if they all lived in just one small African village, then the genetic drift would make only one Y-DNA lineage survive till modern times, so genetic genealogy would become extremely boring.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Have you come across any bizarre results?
    Not really.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    I understand decoding female genealogy is much harder.
    At this moment of time can you prescribe any DNA test for them that can prove their lineages?
    We all (including both females and males) can investigate our purely maternal lineages, and I would definitely recommend full mtDNA sequencing in such case. Also, every female has a father (two grandfathers, etc.), so she can test her male relatives to learn more about her ancestors. Actually, the same applies to males who don't need to focus on their own purely paternal lineage only, as they can also investigate the purely paternal lineages of their remaining male ancestors.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    I know that this is nothing to do with Z283 but I was always curious why orthodox Jews consider only females as the carriers of their Jewish lineage. I am not sure how old is this custom, but I was suspecting that after few millennia of their long history they've noticed some patterns since they are a quite isolated community regardless of the location.
    As far as I know, this shift to matrilineality is considered to be a relatively recent innovation in Jewish tradition, and the ancient Jews seem to have paid more attention to patrilineal descent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBravo View Post
    Have you come across any bizarre results?
    If by bizarre you simply mean not yet explained (i.e., not yet incorporated into a coherent model of prehistory), we have plenty--but we have high hopes that continued investigation of both modern and ancient DNA will progressively grow the model to include more and more such examples.

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