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Thread: So is Z142 considered Celtic or Germanic?

  1. #1
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    So is Z142 considered Celtic or Germanic?

    Just out of curiosity, based on the Kinman Hypothesis of Z142 coming out of southwestern Germany near the black forest, and that area having a history of both Celtic and Germanic peoples, what is Z142 considered?
    Sorry if this question has been answered anywhere else-thanks

    Scott Bendell

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  3. #2
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    While it could be argued that Z142 yielded many lineages which were later to be found in the earliest Celtic and Germanic-speaking groups, Z142's TMRCA is rougly 4,100 years old, which is by far older than anything remotely Celtic or Germanic. Italo-Celtic could work though.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  5. #3
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    So far not one of the R-Z49>Z142 samples in the U152 project is from Germany. That's 0 out of 85 samples in the Z142 section.

    By comparison 7 of 41 (17%) of the other R-Z49 branches have samples from Germany.

    As a whole about 13% of L2 samples in the U152 project are from Germany.

    Overall Germany is 14.4% of U152, 12.8% of L2, 25.6% of Z36, 13.7% of Z56, and 7.1% of PF6658 samples in FTNDA's U152 project.

    If Z142 originated in the black forest, it headed north, south, and west. By the time the Germanics arrived in this area 2000 later, Z142 was mostly long gone to the low countries, British Isles, France, Iberia, Switzerland, and Italy.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-07-2016 at 06:36 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  7. #4
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    Thanks for your responses. So do you think the Z142s travelled with the halstatt or la tene Celts? Or did they move out of Germany with the urnfield and bell beaker cultures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunnos View Post
    Thanks for your responses. So do you think the Z142s travelled with the halstatt or la tene Celts? Or did they move out of Germany with the urnfield and bell beaker cultures?
    My thoughts are it's complicated
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post96427
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    If I had to pick a starting point for Z142; the Alsace, Lorraine, and Franche-Comté region of France (areas bordering Germany and Switzerland) would be a good spot.

    From here one can easily head down the Rhine, Rhone, Moselle and Meuse rivers, (helps explain Z142 being in the Low Countries, Northern France, Southern Europe).

    The reason I believe Z142 tended to stay in place soon after its formation/TMCRA, with waves/groups periodically leaving a core region; is that 14 SNPs later, it has the same pattern in modern day distribution.

    That is:

    Z142 branches found mostly in British Isles, Low Countries, France, Italy, Iberia, and Switzerland (with a single sample from Norway and Hungary).

    3 SNP later, Z150/Z12222/Z26720 found in British Isles, Low Countries, France, Italy, Iberia

    6 SNPs after this FGC12378/79/80/81/82/83 found in British Isles, Low Countries, France, Italy, Iberia

    5 SNPs after this FGC12401/02/03/04/05 found in British Isles and Italy (only 4 current samples).

    According Yfull's dates, this would mean that Z142 and subclades would have been in the same area from at least 2500 BC to 1200 BC; with groups periodically leaving this region and ending up in the above mentioned areas.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunnos View Post
    Thanks for your responses. So do you think the Z142s travelled with the halstatt or la tene Celts? Or did they move out of Germany with the urnfield and bell beaker cultures?
    I think Eastern and Central BB alongside Urnfield have more to do with the spread of Z142 (and other U152 branches) than Hallstatt or La Tène.

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If I had to pick a starting point for Z142; the Alsace, Lorraine, and Franche-Comté region of France (areas bordering Germany and Switzerland) would be a good spot.
    Fully agree with you on this one.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  14. #8
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    Interesting points! Yes definitely seems to be complicated which is why I'm happy to get some expert feedback. So if Z142 spread out with bb and urnfield all around, did they then become immersed in with the Alpine Celts? I'm trying to understand what cultures from Beaker/urnfield onward my line could have been in if that's even a possibility. But seems like age estimation/ formation seems to be 3000 ybd..when I first started it seemed like if you were U152 S28 you were itallo-celtic...does that still make sense or have things evolved? I'm Bendell btw..
    Z142>R-FGC22963 >R-Y20026

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunnos View Post
    Interesting points! Yes definitely seems to be complicated which is why I'm happy to get some expert feedback. So if Z142 spread out with bb and urnfield all around, did they then become immersed in with the Alpine Celts? I'm trying to understand what cultures from Beaker/urnfield onward my line could have been in if that's even a possibility. But seems like age estimation/ formation seems to be 3000 ybd..when I first started it seemed like if you were U152 S28 you were itallo-celtic...does that still make sense or have things evolved? I'm Bendell btw..
    Z142>R-FGC22963 >R-Y20026
    I think you are going to need about half a dozen more SNPs on your branch to get to the Celtic era. But your branch may eventually have a Celtic connection.

    Keep in mind we are at the early stages of this scientific discovery. If the discovery of U152 equalled the Wright brothers first flight, we are currently in the biplane era. In other words we've really just begun this journey.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    While not as famous as Halstaat and La Tène; I could see the Vix site, in France having some ancient Z142.

    The area around the village of Vix in northern Burgundy, France is the site of an important prehistoric complex from the Celtic Late Hallstatt and Early La Tène periods, comprising an important fortified settlement and several burial mounds. The most famous of the latter, the Vix Grave, also known as the grave of the Lady of Vix, dates to circa 500 BC...The complex is centred on Mont Lassois, a steep flat-topped hill that dominates the area. It was the site of a fortified Celtic settlement, or oppidum. To the southeast of the hill, there was a 42-hectare necropolis with graves ranging from the Late Bronze Age via the Hallstatt Culture to Late La Tène.
    Too bad there is such a negative feeling towards dna testing in France.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave

    Clearly the ground beneath the Châtillonnaise has more to reveal. In the summer of 2007, a team of Franco-German archaeologists led by Bruno Chaume from the University of Bourgogne in Dijon uncovered a fortress village on the plateau beneath Mont Lassois. Here, a palace was revealed, the size of a church, 35 m by 21.5 m and some 15m high. Further investigation, thanks to the advances in seismology equipment, have discovered a town covering an area of 60 hectares with a main street leading to the palace, dwellings for hundreds of people, grain warehouses and water cylinders. This town, dating back 2,500 years could well be the first signs of urbanization in western Europe, and the first town in France.
    http://www.burgundytoday.com/histori...tillonnais.htm

    Here's an image of the site in bold with the Seine River in the foreground. Looks like good place for a "fortified Celtic settlement".

    Vix site.jpg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-08-2016 at 03:57 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 5% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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