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Thread: Can an Arabian section be formed?

  1. #21
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    While I'm not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum, I'd still be pretty sad if such a forum were to transform into some sort of Arabocentric propaganda tool. Arabocentrists are hardly better than Afroloons and Nutzis in my book.
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I don't know why you're bringing L93 up, Batroun is L93- (PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, so he'll test negative for L93). If anything, he'll probably end up being positive for a branch of L858 that was common among the Phoenicians (probably not FGC11 but you never know, one of the Middle Bronze Age Sidonians was FGC11 after all). Therefore what you're saying about his paternal ancestors coming from Yemen sounds somewhat spurious.

    I have no prejudice against Arabs, I grew up around Arabs myself. I am not saying that all Arabs are religious fanatics, however you cannot deny that mixing religion with genetics (especially Y-DNA lineages) is a very common theme on Arab DNA fora, this phenomenon has even spread to Twitter. Also, since I've been observing Arab DNA fora for some time now, I know there definitely are some folks who claim that virtually every branch of J1 came from Yemen. I've seen several threads (and tweets for that matter) claiming that my own branch of J1 (ZS241) is Himyarite for example.

    That being said, I am not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum here.
    When you put your haplogroup is J-PF4678 it means you belong to the L93 or J-ZS1281 sub-groups. Saying that you belong only to J-PF4678 means that you are Super man, it's like if we found Adam first tribe. I presumed that he was talking about L93 which is found only in YEMEN, that's a fact that no one can change.
    Now, let's talk about Arabic speaking forums, i know there is lot of religious mythic discussions there that end by disputes, but many discussions are really interesting and intelligent.
    You talk as if all Arabs are fanatics who live in myths. I am from those who think that the main J1 middle eastern origin is from the geographic location on the red sea, south of Palestine, jordan, west Saudi arabia and west Yemen ( called Tuhama ) and the Sinai. i don't belong to those who think that all that folks come from Yemen.
    Thosethings we can discuss in an Arabian Sub forum.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I get confused with what is the term Arabian. What is it used for here?

    Is it

    1- The Arabian peninsula , which includes Saudis, Omanis, Yemeni and others

    2- Is it the language only

    or another which I am unaware of

    For me, and I can be completely wrong, I always referred to Arabian in only a linguistic method, similar to English ( we all speak English , but we are all not from England )
    Since there is a sub forum for : Persian, turks, Greeks, Kurds...i mean a forum for people from Arabis speaking countries. ( 300 million people ).

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    While I'm not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum, I'd still be pretty sad if such a forum were to transform into some sort of Arabocentric propaganda tool. Arabocentrists are hardly better than Afroloons and Nutzis in my book.
    That's racist and a prejudice.
    why when there's a sub-forum for Turks or Portugal we don't talk about Turcocentric or Portugocentric ?

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam-iJ-ZS1727 View Post
    When you put your haplogroup is J-PF4678 it means you belong to the L93 or J-ZS1281 sub-groups. Saying that you belong only to J-PF4678 means that you are Super man, it's like if we found Adam first tribe. I presumed that he was talking about L93 which is found only in YEMEN, that's a fact that no one can change.
    Now, let's talk about Arabic speaking forums, i know there is lot of religious mythic discussions there that end by disputes, but many discussions are really interesting and intelligent.
    You talk as if all Arabs are fanatics who live in myths. I am from those who think that the main J1 middle eastern origin is from the geographic location on the red sea, south of Palestine, jordan, west Saudi arabia and west Yemen ( called Tuhama ) and the Sinai. i don't belong to those who think that all that folks come from Yemen.
    Thosethings we can discuss in an Arabian Sub forum.
    PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, in other words it's a branch of Z1878. L93 is another branch of Z1878, so it's impossible to be L93+ and PF4678+ at the same time, we're dealing with entirely different branches here. For instance, you're YSC76, so that means you're also Z1865+ and therefore PF4678+ as well.

    There are many interesting discussions on Arab DNA fora, some are quite entertaining as well. However we cannot overlook the fact that the Arab world is going through a very tumultuous period and that these discussion boards tend to reflect the woes Arab societies suffer from. BTW I maintain that J1-L862 and most of its branches (Z18297, Z2324, ZS2518, YSC234, etc) are bound to come from the Southern Levant (Negev, Sinai/NW Arabia), this is the most convincing explanation considering the ancient data and this lineage's association with Semitic speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by sam-iJ-ZS1727 View Post
    why when there's a sub-forum for Turks or Portugal we don't talk about Turcocentric or Portugocentric ?
    Well, truth be told, I've never seen Portuguese people claim that the Iberian peninsula is the PIE urheimat and that all Indo-Europeans are Portuguese. Many Arabs do claim that all Semitic peoples came from the Arabian peninsula, this is taught in Arab schools and is part and parcel of the national narrative despite the fact that these theories have been disproven a long time ago. Some countries like Morocco even teach that the Berbers were Arabs (who came from Yemen), there's also an entire literature in Egypt bent on Arabising the Ancient Egyptians. This does exist with the Turks however, Turanists go as far as to claim that Sumerians, Hurrians, Scythians, Etruscans and several other ancient peoples were Turkic in origin, I've often criticised that brand of ethnocentrism on this forum.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-07-2017 at 06:17 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I assume what is really meant here is "Arabic language sub-forum", "Arabian" has more to do with geography.

    Thanks

    From what I read and remember.......
    The term Arab in the post Roman times referred to an area between the Sinai and Yemen on the western side of the Arabian Peninsula , along the red sea.
    They, in majority, pre-muslim religion ~600AD, ........practised a pagan religion.

    I am unsure if Bedouins fit with this term Arab.

    Would this be correct?

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, in other words it's a branch of Z1878. L93 is another branch of Z1878, so it's impossible to be L93+ and PF4678+ at the same time, we're dealing with entirely different branches here. For instance, you're YSC76, so that means you're also Z1865+ and therefore PF4678+ as well.

    There are many interesting discussions on Arab DNA fora, some are quite entertaining as well. However we cannot overlook the fact that the Arab world is going through a very tumultuous period and that these discussion boards tend to reflect the woes Arab societies suffer from. BTW I maintain that J1-L862 and most of its branches (Z18297, Z2324, ZS2518, YSC234, etc) are bound to come from the Southern Levant (Negev, Sinai/NW Arabia), this is the most convincing explanation considering the ancient data and this lineage's association with Semitic speakers.



    Well, truth be told, I've never seen Portuguese people claim that the Iberian peninsula is the PIE urheimat and that all Indo-Europeans are Portuguese. Many Arabs do claim that all Semitic peoples came from the Arabian peninsula, this is taught in Arab schools and is part and parcel of the national narrative despite the fact that these theories have been disproven a long time ago. Some countries like Morocco even teach that the Berbers were Arabs (who came from Yemen), there's also an entire literature in Egypt bent on Arabising the Ancient Egyptians. This does exist with the Turks however, Turanists go as far as to claim that Sumerians, Hurrians, Scythians, Etruscans and several other ancient peoples were Turkic in origin, I've often criticised that brand of ethnocentrism on this forum.
    You have to update your informations. Z1978 does not exist anymore. the new tree DNA is P58---PF4678 and the nain Subgroups for PF4678 are L93 and Z1865. Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, but L93 has only one, which is ZS1281. L93 is a main Branch. The branches you are talking about were in the classification in 3 years ago. So when you talk about PF4678 you talk about L93, and you are yemeni, or Z1865 and you can't say exactly to which of the more 100 subgroups you belong to.

    You are representing Arabs as extremists, fanatics and not worthy to have sub-forum and at the same time you say that you are for an Arabian Sub-group????
    It seems that you have prophetic vision of an extremist sub-group with people talking about religion and obliging other people to become ARABS.
    You are talking about arabic forums as extremist people talking...i found precious informations in arabic forums that i don't find here...when someone in this forum finds himself in a haplkogroup that is found in 1000 Arabs in saudi arabia, people here tell him he is of Phoenician ancestor or of Jewish ancestor......i find that, really, really, stupid and fanatic.

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam-iJ-ZS1727 View Post
    You have to update your informations. Z1978 does not exist anymore. the new tree DNA is P58---PF4678 and the nain Subgroups for PF4678 are L93 and Z1865. Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, but L93 has only one, which is ZS1281. L93 is a main Branch. The branches you are talking about were in the classification in 3 years ago. So when you talk about PF4678 you talk about L93, and you are yemeni, or Z1865 and you can't say exactly to which of the more 100 subgroups you belong to.
    PF4678 is listed as a Z643 equivalent on YFull, in this tree Z643 is ancestral to both Z1865 and L93. The truth however is that YFull tends to put different lineages on the same level, so for example ZS222 and Z18271 are placed on the same level and are listed as equivalents in this tree while in fact ZS222 is upstream and Z18271 is actually downstream.

    You are representing Arabs as extremists, fanatics and not worthy to have sub-forum and at the same time you say that you are for an Arabian Sub-group????
    It seems that you have prophetic vision of an extremist sub-group with people talking about religion and obliging other people to become ARABS.
    You are talking about arabic forums as extremist people talking...i found precious informations in arabic forums that i don't find here...when someone in this forum finds himself in a haplkogroup that is found in 1000 Arabs in saudi arabia, people here tell him he is of Phoenician ancestor or of Jewish ancestor......i find that, really, really, stupid and fanatic.
    You keep making baseless assertions I'm afraid. Again, you cannot deny that the main focus for many Arab DNA fora revolves around religious narratives. There's also no denying the fact that supremacist discourse is widespread on such discussion boards. I don't know what's so controversial about that, this is but a simple fact. I see no contradiction between my stance on the creation of an Arab language sub-forum (which I support) and my warning as to the problems we might encounter in such a sub-forum, I am merely stressing that appropriate moderation ought to be applied.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    PF4678 is listed as a Z643 equivalent on YFull, in this tree Z643 is ancestral to both Z1865 and L93. The truth however is that YFull tends to put different lineages on the same level, so for example ZS222 and Z18271 are placed on the same level and are listed as equivalents in this tree while in fact ZS222 is upstream and Z18271 is actually downstream.



    You keep making baseless assertions I'm afraid. Again, you cannot deny that the main focus for many Arab DNA fora revolves around religious narratives. There's also no denying the fact that supremacist discourse is widespread on such discussion boards. I don't know what's so controversial about that, this is but a simple fact. I see no contradiction between my stance on the creation of an Arab language sub-forum (which I support) and my warning as to the problems we might encounter in such a sub-forum, I am merely stressing that appropriate moderation ought to be applied.
    Z643 does not exist anymore and replaced by PF4678 with 2 main branches who are L93 and Z1865...Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, not the L93 which is too rare and represents a main branch by itself and all people agree that it is South arabian ( at least with the resuts we have ).

    you know, if i say the same words about your ethnic group, you're gonna sue me in court...you remind me of those people who say always : ''I am not Racist, BUT...'' there is always a BUT...i don't say you're a racist, BUT, you are insisting on judging a whole Nation through a forum.

    You know, i feel there is some kind of racism in this forum against Arabs, i will survive if there is no Arabic sub-group, but, you have to face the truth : The forum here is not so different of the arabic speaking forums, but some people think their Racism and extremism is more CIVILIZED than others.

    I think we are discussing for nothing. Thank you.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam-iJ-ZS1727 View Post
    Z643 does not exist anymore and replaced by PF4678 with 2 main branches who are L93 and Z1865...Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, not the L93 which is too rare and represents a main branch by itself and all people agree that it is South arabian ( at least with the resuts we have ).
    You might want to have that discussion with YFull. L93 is common among the Mahra if I'm not mistaken, so yes it does look like a typical SW Arabian branch of J1. However Batroun does not carry this marker.

    you know, if i say the same words about your ethnic group, you're gonna sue me in court...you remind me of those people who say always : ''I am not Racist, BUT...'' there is always a BUT...i don't say you're a racist, BUT, you are insisting on judging a whole Nation through a forum.

    You know, i feel there is some kind of racism in this forum against Arabs, i will survive if there is no Arabic sub-group, but, you have to face the truth : The forum here is not so different of the arabic speaking forums, but some people think their Racism and extremism is more CIVILIZED than others.

    I think we are discussing for nothing. Thank you.
    I'm not judging anyone, I'm merely stating a simple fact, namely that supremacist and religious discourse is widespread on Arab DNA fora, and that we should expect some of this here if we end up having an Arabic language sub-forum. Nothing unreasonable about this, you out of all people should be the first to acknowledge this. As far as Jews are of concern, we also have our fruitcakes, but they're generally far more tame and compliant in comparison.

    I see no racism on this forum, I don't know where you saw people being told that they're not Arabs when they ended up carrying a typically Arabian paternal lineage, I used to be a moderator on the Y-DNA J section and I clearly remember saying the exact opposite (with regards to the Graham cluster IIRC).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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