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Thread: Can Indians and Pakistanis be Syed?

  1. #21
    Has your DNA proven you are Persian?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyaxares View Post
    Why not?
    Because no qualified genetic researcher who has studied this subject has published results because they know that by rushing to make a claim, they will create chaos in the Islamic community. That's why I don't say J1 or any other haplogroup is the haplogroup. We just don't know. Now, you may feel that you know something, but it doesn't mean that you do know something.

  3. #23
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    You didn't answer my question.

  4. #24
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    This is quite interesting:

    "Quraysh & Banu-Hashem (FGC8712+, L859+, FGC10500+, DYS485=14)- Background

    Administrators
    Adnan Khamjan khamjan@gmail.com , Group Administrator
    saadaljoudi@live.com , Group Co-Administrator
    had313@hotmail.com , Group Co-Administrator
    abuathere@hotmail.com , Group Co-Administrator
    Mohsin Sh. mohsinan@hotmail.com , Group Co-Administrator
    Surnames
    Alawi, Hashemi, Qurayshi
    Background
    This project intends to track down individuals, and their Y-DNA kits, who tested positive for FGC8712, L859, FGC8703, FGC10500, ZS2094, FGC40136, FGC10502, CTS8308, FGC8702, FGC9578, ZS5448, ZS2102, and/or L615 markers.

    This projects concluded that:
    * L859+ individuals are descendants of Quraysh tribe
    * FGC8703+ individuals are descendants of Hashem clan
    * FGC10500+ individuals are descendants of Imam Ali (A.S.)

    Below is the most updated phylogenetic tree of the Quraysh (& FGC8712) Project:
    http://www.qur.co/filedata/fetch?id=1715

    Hashem tribe emerged in west Arabia (Hijaz) and migrated to the south (Yemen) or to the north east (Levant, Mesopotamia, & Persia). Sayeds & Sahrifs with well known lines of succession tested positive for L859 and FGC10500 markers. Here is the statistical and geographical distribution of current Quarshi, Hashemi, and Alawite kits:
    http://www.qur.co/filedata/fetch?id=1734

    A Y-STR model of Imam Ali bin abi-Taleb (A.S.) was generated based on the 100+ available Alawite kits:
    http://www.qur.co/filedata/fetch?id=851

    FGC8712 and its downstream SNPs are defined as a branch of the greater J1 phylogenetic tree (characterized by the M267 SNP-marker):
    http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

    Prophets Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismael (Ishmael), Ishac (Isaac), Haroon (Aaron), and Mohamad (PBUH&P) are considered major forefathers in the J1 phylogenetic tree. Today, many groups and families claim to be direct male-descendants of these respected forefathers but they find themselves positioned in distant genetic periods. Thus far, FGC8712 is the only SNP that maintain two parallel descending lines with: one line is 100% Ishamelite-Adnanite (~100 kits) and the other one is 100% Jacobite (~30 kits). The age of FGC8712 subclade is believed to be between 3400 and 4200 yBP (years before present).

    Therefore, individuals who tested positive for this respected Y genetic marker (FGC8712) are encouraged to join the Quraysh & Bani Hashem project.

    To browse all Y-SNPs and understand their positions on the Y-DNA chromosome, please use the ISOGG YBrowse Tool:
    http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?"


    I'm not sure what you mean by choas in the islamic community.

  5. #25
    It is quite interesting for me, but for different reasons. Well, if they say that the Jordanian royal family is not Syed (which is likely true), that may create one type of chaos... There is a joke that Kazuo Morimoto recited that once the Moroccan King went to visit the Shah, the Shah was in a convertible. The Moroccan King asked, isn't this dangerous and risky. The Shah said I am sitting next to a Syed, we will be protected. And the Moroccan King must have been really concerned knowing the reality. Royal families and leaders have forged genealogies, just ask Saddam Hussein.
    Last edited by Ali16; 05-18-2016 at 02:31 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyaxares View Post
    We don't know the DNA of the Prophet but according to the scientists we know the Y-DNA of his paternal grandfather:

    "J1e is the genetic signature of the Hashemites, a clan to which the Prophet Mohammed belonged. The current King of Jordan, Abdullah II, is a Hashemite descendant, and one of the better-known living descendants of the Prophet Mohammed. Just how many will test their own DNA to find a link remains to be seen, officials say. "When it comes to the Prophet, I'd rather live in doubt than receive certainty that I'm not related to him," said Sheikh Furber."

    "Because Ali and the Prophet Mohammed share the same grandfather, their paternal DNA is identical. Descendants can confirm their lineage when they reflect similar patterns. Most Islamic scholars agree there is nothing objectionable about testing individual DNA - and countries such as the UAE encourage DNA use in criminal forensics - but there are complex rulings when it comes to using DNA in court for establishing lineage."

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...-lineage#page1

    Plus I think it makes more logical sense since J1 is Pred in the Arab Peninsula. The Sayyed line descends directly from Imam Ali(AS), if I remember correctly.

    I really don't understand why there is so much drama regarding any of this. What you posted is rather agreed upon. The King of Jordan and his family are among the only people living with whom there is no contest to his lineage. So while there is no way to prove one is Sayyid, one can certainly exclude who isn't. Even if you have the same haplogroup as the King of Jordan, all that proves is that you are from the line of Hashemites. However, if you aren't even of the larger Hashemite line, how can you justify a claim to being Sayyid? You can't. The Arabs were very tribal, and their male lines should produce relevant sub-clades based on that. At the very least, you have to be J1 to entertain the idea of a Sayyid lineage -- and even that I think is too broad. Even if you had the exact same subclade as the King of Jordan you can't be sure -- only one of those lines is from the Prophet and that too via his daughter's marriage to Ali -- so it isn't proof-positive for being Sayyid. There is no direct male descendant from the Prophet, the goal is to have lineage to Ali -- but Ali had 3 other brothers, there is no way to know if you are descendant of Ali's brothers or cousins even if you matched a specific subclade.

    EDIT: Additionally, since many Sayyid's have a practice of only marrying other Sayyids, then technically all the mtDNAs should be the same and have a direct lineage to Fatima... which be even far more proof of relation to the Prophet, even via Fatima's sisters. However, good luck finding same mtDNAs even among 1st cousins of a Sayyid family.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 05-18-2016 at 02:44 PM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  8. #27
    I don't believe any member of the Jordanian royal family has publicized their genetic results. If they have, show me who it was.
    Last edited by Ali16; 05-18-2016 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyaxares View Post
    Prophets Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismael (Ishmael), Ishac (Isaac), Haroon (Aaron), and Mohamad (PBUH&P) are considered major forefathers in the J1 phylogenetic tree. Today, many groups and families claim to be direct male-descendants of these respected forefathers but they find themselves positioned in distant genetic periods. Thus far, FGC8712 is the only SNP that maintain two parallel descending lines with: one line is 100% Ishamelite-Adnanite (~100 kits) and the other one is 100% Jacobite (~30 kits)."
    The trouble with this analysis is one would also have to compare to other descendants of Jacob/Yakub: Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, and Sephardi Jews; Samaritans; and Karaites. Palestinian Christians are probably just as suitable a group to look at.

    There is not one single haplogroup in any of these groups, but rather all have a similar mix of yDNA with some slight differences.

    Even descendants of Aron/Harun are all supposed to be descendants of Levi. I belong to the largest subclade among Levi, which is not J1. J1 is surprisingly scarce in Levi, in fact, with a fair bit of G and R2 and R1b and E-M68 combined.

    In short, taking a literal interpretation of Biblical and Quranic tribal structures and genealogies is probably not compatible with DNA results.

    We are then left with two broad possibilities.

    The first one – and the one I prefer – is that to some degree the descriptions and ideas of of tribal structure and genealogy must be regarded as metaphorical and slightly fluid. We have a similar situation with other clan-based cultures, like Celts. A Scots or Irish clan that all claims descent from a single king or tribal leader is also rarely of one haplogroup. This is probably because it was possible to ally oneself to a clan leader based on common geography, or proving loyalty by fighting in battle against a common foe. One could become a "son" of the tribal leader through other ways than birth.

    Also, leaders of a group need not have been born into a group and so might not have the same haplogroup as the bulk of tribal members. The last two royal families of England were German (Windsor, was Saxe-Coburg–Gotha; and Hanover). The ones before them were Scottish (House of Stuart), briefly Dutch (William of Orange), Welsh (Tudors), and French (Plantagenets).

    The second possibility, if you wish to take everything absolutely literally, is that most clans have at least as many impostors as real descendants.

    Now I can see why there would be a benefit to claiming descent from the Prophet even if it were not true. But at the same time if every clan might have more impostors than real descendants, we are left with jatt2016's point that we simply cannot be certain what haplogroup any Prophet was, and the fact that any haplogroup constitutes the majority can't be used as evidence that it was the haplogroup of a historical prophet.

    (At the same time it seems rather unlikely that Sadah anywhere would not have a haplogroup typical for Arabia.)
     

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    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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  11. #29
    Thanks, even JATT2016 is questioning his Jewish Punjabi roots. Instead of J-CTS2906, he may be F, H, R, or J.

    There is a law in Jordan that says you should not provide any information about the royal family when it is not an official statement.
    Last edited by Ali16; 05-18-2016 at 03:24 PM.

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  13. #30
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    AJL what you say is true. I think however in relation to the Sayyed line is that the idea is genealogically they have written down there lines to prove they descendant from the Prophet via Imam Ali. Thought I guess yeh to know for sure you'd have to test all the sayyeds' Y-DNA to be sure.

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