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Thread: J2 maps

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Chris, has there been much headway into J2b of Europe ? Sublcades ?
    Nothing substantial. Together with other channels you may follow http://j2-m172.info/category/m172/m102/
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites); Y-DNA J2a-PF5169, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects in which I work:Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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  3. #12
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    J-FGC9961 is a subclade of J-L24 under the F3133 branch.

    Map of confirmed haplotypes is here:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...en&usp=sharing

    Its strongest frequency seems to be the Arab/Persian Gulf region. It has been found in Brahui sample as well. In europe it is very rare and quite widespread though Spain, Italy and Rhine seem to predominate the dozen or so ancestral haplotypes.

    Some near eastern populations where we find FGC9961:

    Arab (many)
    Brahui (1)
    Kurdish (1)
    Iranian (4)
    Azerbaijan
    Armenian (3)
    Mountain Jewish (1)
    Iraqi (2)
    Kyrgyz (1)
    Lebanon (1)
    Israel (1)
    Sephardic (1)

    I personally think this clade is about 5000-8000 years old and originates with Jiroft, Elam or other nearby civilization. It is also noteworthy Grugni 2012, posits an iranian origin for J-L24 the parent clade of FGC9961.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Reznov View Post
    Interesting peak in the Italian peninsula. I think more research there would be wonderful.
    M92 only has 3 subclades:Z500(which I belong to), found in the eastern Mediterranean region. Y4036, which I do not know much about but is found among Cypriots and Jews so it's probably similar to Z500, and Z7671 which is found mainly(as far as I know) in the caucasus region. The distinction is pretty clear so it should be pretty easy to figure out how it got to Italy.
    It would be interesting if some eventually got interested in y dna J2a with regard to the origin of italic language and tribes (outside the classic pattern: proto celts, proto germanics and proto italics from bronze age central europe).

    In the core area of the first italic tribes, in Umbria and Marche (on the right hand side of tuscany) and further south in Lazio (Rome) and Abruzzo there are percentages of J2 of 25 per cent and only 35 per cent R1b, whereas in northern Italy and Tuscany there's 50 or 60 per cent R1b. It means that in the original italic area (central italy) there is a higher percentage of J2 than in Southern Italy where there's plenty of archaeological traces of iron age Greeks and Illyrian type folks and also a vast migration from the byzantine empire after the fall of the roman empire.

    I'm from the Marche, on the adriatic side, and despite having traced my italian lineage in central italy back to the early 18th century, I have, according to the genographic project, 26 per cent asia minor component. On different forums, other italians, especially from Marche and Abruzzo (the central Adriatic coast) were surprised to find similar percentages.

    I think there must have been during the bronze age a X population (within the bronze age apennine culture) from somewhere east who was later joined by people carrying y dna R1b u152 (proto villanovan?). And the italic languages may be the result of that.
    Last edited by patrizio22; 12-30-2016 at 11:02 AM.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    It would be interesting if some eventually got interested in y dna J2a with regard to the origin of italic language and tribes (outside the classic pattern: proto celts, proto germanics and proto italics from bronze age central europe).

    In the core area of the first italic tribes, in Umbria and Marche (on the right hand side of tuscany) and further south in Lazio (Rome) and Abruzzo there are percentages of J2a of nearly 30 per cent and only 35 or 40 per cent R1b, whereas in northern Italy and Tuscany there's 50, 60 or even 70 per cent R1b. It means that in the italic area (central italy) there is a higher percentage of J2 than in Southern Italy where there's plenty of archaeological traces of iron age Greeks and Illyrian type folks and also a vast migration from the byzantine empire after the fall of the roman empire.

    I'm from the Marche, on the adriatic side, and despite having traced my italian lineage back to the early 18th century, I have, according to the genographic project, 26 per cent asia minor component. On different forums, other italians, especially from Marche and Abruzzo (the central Adriatic coast) were surprised to find similar percentages.

    I think there must have been during the bronze age a X population from somewhere east who was later joined by people carrying y dna R1b u152. And the italic languages may be the result of that.
    This came from Eupedia site today

    Italic J2a1. That branch is Z435, immediately downstream of L70.

    All L70 carriers today descend from a single patrilineal ancestor who lived about 5,000 years ago, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Central Europe from the Pontic Steppe. Indeed, a lot of J2a1-L70 are now found in Northeast Europe and Central Asia, which suggests an Indo-European dispersal from the steppes.

    Z435 has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years, which corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Spain, France, England, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria or Tunisia, all regions colonised by the Romans. It would be very hard to explain how this 2500 year-old clade spread so far and wide around Europe if it weren't for the Romans.

    Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old and, although rare, it is found today in places like Tuscany, Sardinia and Spain, which also suggests a Roman connection.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    This came from Eupedia site today

    Italic J2a1. That branch is Z435, immediately downstream of L70.

    All L70 carriers today descend from a single patrilineal ancestor who lived about 5,000 years ago, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Central Europe from the Pontic Steppe. Indeed, a lot of J2a1-L70 are now found in Northeast Europe and Central Asia, which suggests an Indo-European dispersal from the steppes.

    Z435 has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years, which corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Spain, France, England, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria or Tunisia, all regions colonised by the Romans. It would be very hard to explain how this 2500 year-old clade spread so far and wide around Europe if it weren't for the Romans.

    Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old and, although rare, it is found today in places like Tuscany, Sardinia and Spain, which also suggests a Roman connection.
    So, the proto italics from central Europe theory seems to be confirmed. This L70 seems to be a new snp linked to the indo europeans. Unfortunately, the percentages available for Italy online were only for Y dna J2 without subclades.

    What puzzles me is that the Gauls, who apparently had the same patrilineal ancestor as the Italics ( unless I'm mistaken) which means R1b u152, didn't seem to have the same kind of admixture. At least, contemporary populations where the Gauls lived, France (save the atlantic coast) and Northern Italy.


    So, if this L70 was carried by indo european migrants, does it mean a caucasian origin (Maykop)?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 12-29-2016 at 11:33 PM.

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  11. #16
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    Interesting...I had not heard that theory before (L70 having a Steppe origin). If L70 came from the Steppe, what about Z-387 (the clade above L70)?
    Paternal Line: Rhineland Germany (J2-Z387) - Confirmed
    Maternal Grandfather - (Škofja Loka, Slovenia) - R1a1 - Y2613 - Confirmed
    Paternal G-Grandfather - Germany - R1b - U106 - Confirmed
    Maternal G-Grandfather - Briano, Caserta, Italy - Possible R1b - L51

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  13. #17
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    Two threads showing percentages of 25 or 30 per cent or even more of asia minor admixture in Italy It is way more than what you get in Greece.


    http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=37322

    http://www.italiangenealogy.com/foru...enealogy/33952
    Last edited by patrizio22; 01-02-2017 at 07:13 PM.

  14. #18
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    I don't want to throw cold water on a working theory, but I just have to interject on this idea that a subclade of L70 has come to europe from the Pontic Steppe. It's just not a likely scenario at all.

    first, look at the parent clade L70, which in itself is quite young. It peaks in Southern Anatolia (Underhill King data) at about 12%. This is very high for such a young subclade as L70. Its presence spreads from there along the coasts of the mediterranean-northern levant. It has another peak in western Sicily at approx. 11% (Roy King data).

    Z435 and PF5456 also have major clusters which are Jewish.

    When we look at L70 data in the near east, it drops dramatically as you move away from the coast; it is very rare in the Pontic Steppe and certainly this clade has migrated to italy via maritime routes of the mediterranean. From there, yes, certainly it could have migrated to other areas of europe with the romans, but the idea that it has somehow come to Italy via land migrations from Eastern europe, caucasus, just isn't supported at all.

    L70 is the quintessential Mediterranean/maritime marker and without a doubt it was brought to Europe via the Med from the Levant and Southern Anatolia. From this point, yes, a connection to the Romans makes sense.

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    Your thoughts regarding L70's diffusion from the Levant/ Southern Anatolia seem spot on; I never bought into the idea that it came from the steppe along with R1b. You mentioned data about L70's frequency in different parts of the near east - particularly data from Underhill, King, and Roy. If you could please share a link to the studies/ data I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

  17. #20
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    sorry for the delay in replying, just caught your response... Here is a link to data on J2 445=6 in Anatolia:

    https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...471-2148-11-69

    And the sicily data can be found here:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008120a.html

    We are relying on the STR DYS 445=6 which is a characteristic unique to J-Z387 haplotypes to infer these percentages

    In any event, the text in the papers above also notes that the DYS 391=9 subset of DYS 445=6 J2's peaks along the mediterranean coasts.

    Hope this is helpful. They are old papers but very relevant to what we now know is J-L70.

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