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Thread: J1-F3547 ... How to research gap -8500 BP to 1500s?

  1. #1
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    J1-F3547 ... How to research gap -8500 BP to 1500s?

    I have recently received (FTDNA Y-111 and Big-Y) results that put me in haplogroup J1-F3547. As best I can tell this follows the tree M267 > F4306 > F1614 > F3547, but I am not a genetics expert and have found this sequence on several published trees. My understanding is that F3547 may have originated in the Caucasus/Anatolia region around 8500 years ago, and we have traced our paternal line back farily completely to a Jorg May who was born in Gelnhausen, Germany in 1520 (and died there in 1611). What is the best approach to try and fill in this large gap in time as far as migration paths?

    I can find only 2 other FTDNA kits with J1-F3547 (am trying to contact them but without success so far in finding who they are), and it may simply be the case that filling in this gap is hopeless at present due to lack of sufficient number of available tests. But is there some kind of research I can do with my results (SNP and STR values) to try and find out more information on the migration paths taken between 8500 years ago and the early 1500s? How does one go about getting information like this? Are there organizations who can be paid to do this kind of research (I do have Yfull looking at my BAM file, but I don't know what comes of that). Does anyone here know more about haplogroup J1-F3547?

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  3. #2
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    Hi there RmayNV and welcome to Anthrogenica, it seems you're part of the May cluster under F3547, the two other kits you're referring to are 18153 and 18215. If we add kit 272108 (Salonen) from Finland, we have all the F3547 individuals in the J1 FTDNA project so far (I suggest you join this project). I've always found the latter sample quite intriguing, considering the fact that J1 was found in a Karelian EHG and that Satsurblia was FGC42175 (a sister branch of F1614 under F4306) I'd say it's quite likely that some F1614 was present in Eastern Europe or the Caspian steppe during the Paleaolithic, either that or it arrived there later on during the Mesolithic (or even the Neolithic), the most parsimonious route in all cases goes straight through the Caucasus.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  5. #3
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    Agamemnon,
    Thank you for the welcome message. I joined the J1 project at FTDNA a few days ago and they have me at the very bottom of the Y-111 results (page 3. under "ungrouped", kit number 488013). I had also joined the May surname project there a few months ago, which shows the other May males who have been tested so far. Most of that group seem more interested in recent connections within the family tree, while I am most interested in trying to fill in the gap between roughly 8,500 years ago (if that is indeed roughly when F3547 first appeared somewhere around the Caucasus region), and when my ancestors ended up in Germany by the early 1500s.

    With so few people tested at FTDNA for J1-F3547, does that mean that I am unlikely to get very far in my quest? I would like to get more information on Salonen but don't know of any way to contact him, or if I did get in touch exactly what the process would be to try and learn more. The fact that he indicates a Finland connection (either for himself, or his last known paternal ancestor), it is the only F3547 I have seen so far that doesn't show either a German last known ancestor (such as myself and the other DYS439=7 group), or "unknown" (eg. Saaty, kit number 428482). I am in touch with kit 18215 who is a known descendent of the same Jorg May that I am. I assume FTDNA would move me into the 198 cluster eventually, rather than "ungrouped" as now.

    Thanks again for the quick reply. I have a lot to learn about how to research this stuff but hopefully the lack of testees (at least at FTDNA) won't be an absolute show stopper.
    Randy

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Hi there RmayNV and welcome to Anthrogenica, it seems you're part of the May cluster under F3547, the two other kits you're referring to are 18153 and 18215. If we add kit 272108 (Salonen) from Finland, we have all the F3547 individuals in the J1 FTDNA project so far (I suggest you join this project). I've always found the latter sample quite intriguing, considering the fact that J1 was found in a Karelian EHG and that Satsurblia was FGC42175 (a sister branch of F1614 under F4306) I'd say it's quite likely that some F1614 was present in Eastern Europe or the Caspian steppe during the Paleaolithic, either that or it arrived there later on during the Mesolithic (or even the Neolithic), the most parsimonious route in all cases goes straight through the Caucasus.

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    Well if you request your BAM file from FTDNA and analysis your BIG Y result in Yfull.com it would be help full to filling the gap.

    Here is the tree of F4306. https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y6305/

    FIN sample is probably Salonen, YF04860 is from Erzincan Turkey. If you analysis your result there you may learn how many years ago you had common ancestry with those samples.

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  9. #5
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    Big-Y and BAM

    Thanks ... I'm glad you recommend Yfull. They do have my Big-Y BAM file (as of a couple of weeks ago) and I am waiting on the results. So hopefully that can shed more light on the situation.



    Quote Originally Posted by Anabasis View Post
    Well if you request your BAM file from FTDNA and analysis your BIG Y result in Yfull.com it would be help full to filling the gap.

    Here is the tree of F4306. https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y6305/

    FIN sample is probably Salonen, YF04860 is from Erzincan Turkey. If you analysis your result there you may learn how many years ago you had common ancestry with those samples.

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  11. #6
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    Hello Randy
    Ricardo here. You have a very basal J1 branch, actually the most basal one and we should wait more results from Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and specially from the Caspian Sea and Northern Iran to understand the composition and the diversity of J1 branches after the Last Glaciation. In those regions we can find the biggest J1 basal diversity and we still have very few original research and very few samples from that core J1 regions in order to understand the basal ramifications and movements to Central and Western Europe in our cases.
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  13. #7
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    Hello Ricardo,
    I took your advice and sent Yfull my BAM file a couple of weeks ago (and Agamemnon also recommend this today so they seem to be a good resource that all of you experts know about). It does appear there are not yet enough people tested from my branch with only a couple outside of our surname project within the FTDNA J1 project as a whole (both Salonen and Saaty are J1-F3547 ... Salonen connected to Finland in some way, and Saaty shows an unknown location). If I could contact them I would offer to pay for their Yfull BAM analyses as that sounds like it might be a source of additional information (possibly the only source at the moment). Thank you for continuing to help.
    Randy

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    Quote Originally Posted by RmayNV View Post
    Agamemnon,
    I joined the J1 project at FTDNA a few days ago and they have me at the very bottom of the Y-111 results.

    I assume FTDNA would move me into the 198 cluster eventually, rather than "ungrouped" as now.
    FYI Randy, FTDNA hosts the projects, but they are run by volunteers - see top left of the home page of your project for Administrator and Co-Admins.
    They do what they can when they can.
    I have found all the haplogroup admins I have seen as beyond me in knowledge and very helpful.
    My point is that their time can be limited, so sometimes patience is needed.

    To get back to the 1500s with your paper trail you must be quite good at handling detail, and probably some complexity.
    Although the fine detail on haplogroups comes from the projects, some academic papers can be useful at least for background and general movements.
    Give them a try, even if you have to go back your base at J1.
    Some will be mentioned in previous posts in this forum, so start there and then try Google Scholar.

    Good luck, and enjoy the journey!
    Last edited by Saetro; 06-05-2016 at 11:44 PM.

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  17. #9
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    J1-F3547 ... How to research gap -8500 BP to 1500s?

    Saetro,
    With the general J1 project at FTDNA being so large, I can imagine it may take some time for the administrators to manage what must be a lot of questions coming their way. I got in touch with Ricardo through the M365 project there thinking I was J1b, but learned from him that that is now J1a1, so it can get confusing when these designations change and various phylo trees are not updated. Using the mutation designations seems to be the safest way to keep on the correct path. I just discovered this forum today so will spend some time reading the posts in this section. Seems to be a very useful resource with helpful participants.
    Randy


    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    FYI Randy, FTDNA hosts the projects, but they are run by volunteers - see top left of the home page of your project for Administrator and Co-Admins.
    They do what they can when they can.
    I have found all the haplogroup admins I have seen as beyond me in knowledge and very helpful.
    My point is that their time can be limited, so sometimes patience is needed.

    To get back to the 1500s with your paper trail you must be quite good at handling detail, and probably some complexity.
    Although the fine detail on haplogroups comes from the projects, some academic papers can be useful at least for background and general movements.
    Give them a try, even if you have to go back your base at J1.
    Some will be mentioned in previous posts in this forum, so start there and then try Google Scholar.

    Good luck, and enjoy the journey!

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  19. #10
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    Randy, you can also contact Salonen and others at YFull-Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/yfullcom/
    Another very good space of discussion
    YFull tree - YF02055
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/
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