Intruiging Brahmin Y-DNA R samples (Jammu-Kashmir)

[DMXX]

Recently got a hold of Genetic polymorphisms for 17 Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in Jammu and Kashmir Saraswat Brahmin population by Yadav et al. (2010) and ran the 17 Y-STR's of the 109 samples through Urasin's YPredictor. Some interesting Y-DNA R results came up.

Pop	H*	DYS456	DYS389I	DYS390	DYS389II	DYS458	DYS19	DYS385	b	DYS393	DYS391	DYS439	DYS635	DYS392	Y_GATA_H4	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	n	Haplogroup	Probability				
KSB	H087	15	14	25	30	14	15	11	13	13	10	12	25	14	11	14	11	18	1	R1b1*-P25*(xP297)	98%				
JSB	H016	15	13	25	29	18	15	10	14	14	11	11	21	11	12	15	11	19	1	R1b1b2-M269	75%

KSB = Kashmiri Saraswat Brahmin, JSB = Jammu Saraswat Brahmin, copy and paste into Notepad to view tidy data string

Where do these samples fit within the established clusters of R1b-P25 and R1b-M269? Will post the other results elsewhere.

[TigerMW]

Recently got a hold of Genetic polymorphisms for 17 Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in Jammu and Kashmir Saraswat Brahmin population by Yadav et al. (2010) and ran the 17 Y-STR's of the 109 samples through Urasin's YPredictor. Some interesting Y-DNA R results came up.

Pop	H*	DYS456	DYS389I	DYS390	DYS389II	DYS458	DYS19	DYS385	b	DYS393	DYS391	DYS439	DYS635	DYS392	Y_GATA_H4	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	n	Haplogroup	Probability				
KSB	H087	15	14	25	30	14	15	11	13	13	10	12	25	14	11	14	11	18	1	R1b1*-P25*(xP297)	98%				
JSB	H016	15	13	25	29	18	15	10	14	14	11	11	21	11	12	15	11	19	1	R1b1b2-M269	75%

KSB = Kashmiri Saraswat Brahmin, JSB = Jammu Saraswat Brahmin, copy and paste into Notepad to view tidy data string

Where do these samples fit within the established clusters of R1b-P25 and R1b-M269? Will post the other results elsewhere.

I need to copy/paste them in t a spreadsheet to do some comparisons, but there are some oddities so I didn't spot any western European types easily. On the other hand, they do like R1b-ish so the haplogroup predictor is probably right. They are R1b's of some type.

[pconroy]

DMXX,

I think that Mehrgarh could be the origin of R1 or R1b and that it spread together with some mtDNA T1a1a1 (7K TMRCA) from there. But who knows...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh

Cheers,
Paul

[newtoboard]

Did anyone figure out which subclade these belong to?

[Jean M]

I think that Mehrgarh could be the origin of R1 or R1b

It is more likely that some R1b travelled with Elamite farmers to Mehrgarh. The latter is an outpost of Neolithic farming in its spread from the Near East, rather than farming spreading from Mehrgarh to the Near East.

[newtoboard]

It is more likely that some R1b travelled with Elamite farmers to Mehrgarh. The latter is an outpost of Neolithic farming in its spread from the Near East, rather than farming spreading from Mehrgarh to the Near East.

Where did you get this information from? I agree with an west to east spread of farming but I wasn't aware on anyone having narrowed down the region of West Asia from which farming came to South Asia. How does it make sense to derive South Asia's likely fully West Asian farmers from a population which likely had large amounts of J1, T, E1b and was heavily SW Asian shifted?

[Jean M]

@ newtoboard

I'm not sure what you are saying. Why do you you think that Elam had large amounts of J1, T and E1b? Bear in mind that present-day Iran contains a mixture of populations, including groups which arrived long after the Neolithic.

The evidence of the route taken to Mehrgarh is archaeological. I am using "Elam" here to refer to the Neolithic of what is now Iran. It began in/near the Zagros Mountains.

[newtoboard]

@ newtoboard

I'm not sure what you are saying. Why do you you think that Elam had large amounts of J1, T and E1b? Bear in mind that present-day Iran contains a mixture of populations, including groups which arrived long after the Neolithic.

The evidence of the route taken to Mehrgarh is archaeological. I am using "Elam" here to refer to the Neolithic of what is now Iran. It began in/near the Zagros Mountains.

Our definition of Elam differs then. I think it best refers to the portion of Iran that lies on the Mesopotamian plains and hence why it I think it likely had large amounts of J1, T, E1b.

[parasar]

J1+E+T ~40-50%

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...calisation.png
Elam is the Persian heartland from Susa to Anshan between Zagros and the Gulf.

J1 - currently about 10-30% in what was the Elam region


E - currently about 10-20% in what was the Elam region


T- courtesy Eupedia - currently about 10% in what was the Elam region

[Jean M]

Our definition of Elam differs then. I think it best refers to the portion of Iran that lies on the Mesopotamian plains

Yes you are right. We only have the name "Elam" once we have writing, which was millennia after the movement from the Zagros region to Mehrgarh. By the time we have the name, farmers had moved south to settle in the region known as Elam.

I should not have used the term Elamite. I was thinking of the suggestions that Dravidian is linked to Elamite linguistically, but that is by no means accepted by all linguists. Elamite probably developed from a language spoken by earlier farmers closer to the heartland of the Neolithic in
/near the Zagros.