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Thread: [Split] Indo-Iranians: Chariots, Language and Archaeological Assignments

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Perhaps it was mediated via an early offshoot via BMAC, but I again doubt this scenario because there barely any steppe elements in BMAC apart from odd steppe ceramics containing milk residue - suggesting they came - at least initially - as traders of products.
    We have to be very precise here. Although the first excavator of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (Viktor Sarianidi) thought it was IE, this has not convinced other archaeologists or linguists. It developed from Iranian farming cultures. What is being proposed is that the BMAC initially interacted with and influenced some of the Sintashta-type steppe people, creating a hybrid (Tazabag'yab) around the Aral Sea, which eventually took over the remnants of the BMAC after its original population sought greener pastures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactri...ogical_Complex

    Interactions with other cultures

    BMAC materials have been found in the Indus civilisation, on the Iranian plateau, and in the Persian Gulf.[8] Finds within BMAC sites provide further evidence of trade and cultural contacts. They include an Elamite-type cylinder seal and a Harappan seal stamped with an elephant and Indus script found at Gonur-depe.[12] The relationship between Altyn-Depe and the Indus Valley seems to have been particularly strong. Among the finds there were two Harappan seals and ivory objects. The Harappan settlement of Shortugai in Northern Afghanistan on the banks of the Amu Darya probably served as a trading station.[5]

    There is evidence of sustained contact between the BMAC and the Eurasian steppes to the north, intensifying c. 2000 BCE. In the delta of the Amu Darya where it reaches the Aral Sea, its waters were channeled for irrigation agriculture by people whose remains resemble those of the nomads of the Andronovo Culture. This is interpreted as nomads settling down to agriculture, after contact with the BMAC. The culture they created is known as Tazabag'yab.[13] About 1800 BCE, the walled BMAC centres decreased sharply in size. Each oasis developed its own types of pottery and other objects. Also pottery of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture to the north appeared widely in the Bactrian and Margian countryside. Many BMAC strongholds continued to be occupied and Andronovo-Tazabagyab coarse incised pottery occurs within them (along with the previous BMAC pottery) as well as in pastoral camps outside the mudbrick walls. In the highlands above the Bactrian oases in Tajikistan, kurgan cemeteries of the Vaksh and Bishkent type appeared with pottery that mixed elements of the late BMAC and Andronovo-Tazabagyab traditions.[14]
    For refs see the Wikipedia article.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    We have to be very precise here. Although the first excavator of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (Viktor Sarianidi) thought it was IE, this has not convinced other archaeologists or linguists. It developed from Iranian farming cultures. What is being proposed is that the BMAC initially interacted with and influenced some of the Sintashta-type steppe people, creating a hybrid (Tazabag'yab) around the Aral Sea, which eventually took over the remnants of the BMAC after its original population sought greener pastures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactri...ogical_Complex



    For refs see the Wikipedia article.
    Which part are we being specific about ?
    That BMAC was non-IE ? Mallory thought it was beginning to be penetrated by pastoralists. But I think itll be just like Iranian Chalcolithic


    Although those 'sustained contacts ' mentioned in the Wikipedia article are more like what I just suggested: trade, especially secondary products coming from nearby pastoralists.

    See "Differentiated Landscapes and Non-uniform Complexity among Bronze Age Societies of the Eurasian Steppe'. Has a section on BMAC

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Which part are we being specific about ? That BMAC was non-IE ? Mallory thought it was beginning to be penetrated by pastoralists. But I think it'll be just like Iranian Chalcolithic.
    This is exactly what we need to be specific about. The BMAC proper, itself, per se, looks solidly based on Iranian Neolithic foundations. Rectangular brick houses = Near Eastern origin. In genetic terms, we can expect it to be loaded with Y-DNA J.

    While it was flourishing, it was in contact with various other cultures, as I quoted above, including Sintashta in the north, Iran and the Persian Gulf in the west and Harappan in the south. So this is the phase in which we can envisage the metal-working, chariot-making steppe people starting to:
    • understand what irrigation agriculture is and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
    • understand brick building and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
    • learn about trade routes to the south - connections with Iran, the Persian Gulf and IVC.

    During this phase, a group of steppe people, probably mixed with BMAC people, decided to try this irrigation-farming lark near the Aral Sea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazabagyab_culture

    Then the BMAC declined. The culture crashed. (Dryer climate?) People probably wended their way south to the Indus Valley or elsewhere. The hybrid known as the Tazabagyab culture seems to have moved into the former BMAC strongholds. This is the point at which we could envisage a further mixing with the BMAC remnants to create a hybrid culture, genetically Y-DNA R1a and J. From here we can picture some charioteers going west to take over a Hurrian kingdom (Mitanni), while others gradually followed the well-worn path south into the Swat Valley.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-19-2016 at 08:16 PM.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    The issue is, the entire archaeology of Andronovo horizon needs an overhaul- as pointed out by Frachetti in his book
    You mean Michael Frachetti's contribution to Social Complexity in Prehistoric Eurasia Monuments, Metals and Mobility ed Bryan K. Hanks, Katheryn M. Linduff (2009)? http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter....O9780511605376

    Or his actual book Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, Berkeley: University of California Press 2008?

    His more recent outline of his thinking on the topic is in my online library for those interested. Archaeology> Steppe > Nomadism
    Michael D. Frachetti, Multiregional emergence of mobile pastoralism and nonuniform institutional complexity across Eurasia, Current Anthropology, Vol. 53, No. 1 (February 2012) with comments from various experts.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-20-2016 at 01:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    This is exactly what we need to be specific about. The BMAC proper, itself, per se, looks solidly based on Iranian Neolithic foundations. Rectangular brick houses = Near Eastern origin. In genetic terms, we can expect it to be loaded with Y-DNA J.

    While it was flourishing, it was in contact with various other cultures, as I quoted above, including Sintashta in the north, Iran and the Persian Gulf in the west and Harappan in the south. So this is the phase in which we can envisage the metal-working, chariot-making steppe people starting to:
    • understand what irrigation agriculture is and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
    • understand brick building and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
    • learn about trade routes to the south - connections with Iran, the Persian Gulf and IVC.

    During this phase, a group of steppe people, probably mixed with BMAC people, decided to try this irrigation-farming lark near the Aral Sea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazabagyab_culture

    Then the BMAC declined. The culture crashed. (Dryer climate?) People probably wended their way south to the Indus Valley or elsewhere. The hybrid known as the Tazabagyab culture seems to have moved into the former BMAC strongholds. This is the point at which we could envisage a further mixing with the BMAC remnants to create a hybrid culture, genetically Y-DNA R1a and J. From here we can picture some charioteers going west to take over a Hurrian kingdom (Mitanni), while others gradually followed the well-worn path south into the Swat Valley.
    Yes I agree.
    I think the post-BMAC phase is still enigmatic.

    You have probably read this also, but this is a good paper "Ulug-Depe in the frame of Turkmenistan Iron Age: an overview"

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    You have probably read this also, but this is a good paper "Ulug-Depe in the frame of Turkmenistan Iron Age: an overview"
    No I hadn't seen it. It has gone straight into my library thanks.

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    When it comes to the issue of Scythians:

    Here an interesting analysis of Iron Age Scythian DNA by Davidski:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-scythian.html

    ==============

    Iron Age Volga Scythian sample compared to modern populations:

    Genetically North-Eastern European + Native Siberian admixture:

    Identical-by-State (IBS) similarity

    Lithuanian 0.645247
    Estonian 0.645233
    Latvian 0.645024
    Russian_Kostroma 0.644946

    Irish 0.644902
    Orcadian 0.644792
    Norwegian 0.644754
    Belorussian 0.644727
    Swedish 0.644667
    Polish 0.644664
    Austrian 0.644639
    Danish 0.644587
    English_Cornwall 0.644556
    Belgian 0.644552
    Scottish_Argyll 0.644548

    (...)

    Scythians were the descendants of Bronze Age Eastern European migrants to South Siberia, who expanded west across the Eurasian steppe during the Iron Age and eventually ended up back in Europe.
    Doesn't look like modern Iranic-speakers, but also not Turkic at all.

    It looks Indo-European, so at least closer to Iranic than to Turkic.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-20-2016 at 03:45 PM.

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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Doesn't look like modern Iranic-speakers
    What makes you say that? Has there been a comparison with modern Iranic-speakers? If so, which ones? The modern people I would expect to be closest to the Scythians are Eastern Iranian speakers: Pashto or Yaghnobi language speakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghnobi_people

    The Yaghnobi NRY portrait is one dominated by the presence of Haplogroup R - its origins remain unclear - and of R1a1, a sublineage associated with Central Asia/South Asia and evidently related to the Kurgan Culture in East Europe or to early Iranian expansion into the area c. 3000 BC.[6] The next most important Y-DNA contribution to the Yaghnobi is that of haplogroup J2, associated with the spread of agriculture in, and from, the neolithic Near East.[6]
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-20-2016 at 04:22 PM.

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    I thought this material would be interesting to those who are interested in archeology. I pulled this text from an untranslatable PDF file.
    The text is too complicated to be translated by me. Everyone can try to translate it using Google (but I think for him it will be difficult too). However, the main meaning of the text should be clear. I wrapped this text in the spoiler tag.(About chariots in Eurasic Steppe).
     
    Всероссийский археологический съезд. 2011. Великий Новгород.
    К вопросу о колесницах эпохи бронзы евразийской степи–лесостепи (происхождение, назначение, значение)
    А.В. Моисеев
    Воронежский государственный университет, Воронеж

    В материалах рубежа средней поздней бронзы евразийской степи-лесостепи выделяется серия погребений, относящихся к разным культурным образованиям (бабинские, абашевские, синташтинские, петровские, покровского и потаповского типов, ранне-срубные древности), но к сравнительно узкому хронологическому интервалу (200-300 лет.) и объединенных присутствием в них остатков колесниц (чаще всего,их частей) или колесничного снаряжения и упряжи (главным образом, псалиев). Словно нечто само собой разумеющееся эти колесницы интерпретированы как боевые (более осторожные оценки Виноградов, 2003. С. 263 266; другие авторы и работы в явном меньшинстве), а их значение как в высшей степени исключительное, позволяющее говорить о героической эпохе,о развитой социальной стратификации, о колесничьей аристократии (Е.Е. Кузьмина), в частности, сыгравшей определяющую роль в формировании Волго-Уральского очага культурогенеза (Бочкарев, 2010. С. 52 59, 116 118, др.), о выходе
    на предгосударственный (минимум) уровень развития, об изобретении колесницы в степях Евразии (Чередниченко, 1976; и многие другие авторы) и т.п. Эти широкие выводы, мало подтверждающиеся иными материалами (напр., поселений), основаны почти исключительно на погребениях с колесницами. Но так ли прочно это основание?

    Происхождение.

    Сохраняют силу высказанные еще Г. Чайлдом аргументы в пользу единого центра и однократности происхождения колесницы в Древнем мире (Кожин, 1985. С. 176). Таковым центром, несомненно, является Древний Передний Восток. Парноколесная легкая боевая колесница на конской упряжи, с колесами на спицах (о которой чаще всего и идет речь применительно к евразийской степи лесостепи) существенная модификация бытовавшей на Древнем Востоке ранее (с начала III тыс. до н.э.), но также всецело продукт древневосточной инженерно-технической мысли (Горелик, 1985; Кожин,1985. С. 176; и др.).
    Пути распространения колесниц в евразийской степи-лесостепи могли быть как с запада на восток (Матвеев, 2005; и др.),
    так и в обратном направлении (Отрощенко, 2009; др.). Все же вероятнее первый вариант. Отметим, что в Синташте
    даже первые колесничные лошади привозные из ареала древневосточного культурного влияния (Косинцев, 2008. С. 122 124, 127 128).
    Не исключено и два (западный и восточный) независимых (но имеющих общий древневосточный источник) вектора распространения колесниц в евразийской степи-лесостепи, столкнувшихся в конечном итоге на Волге. В этой связи сравниваются две традиции изготовления костяных псалиев с шипами (Усачук, 2007. С. 16 17), отражающие, по нашему мнению, различные решения одной проблемы: создания древневосточным бронзовым прототипам аналогов из рога, кости, дерева.
    Колесницы же ранней стадии развития (до изобретения конской упряжи и широкого использования колеса на спицах)
    могли (через Кавказский регион) стать известны в катакомбной среде, но широкого распространения ни в ней, ни, тем паче, за ее пределами не получили.
    Что же до гипотезы о евразийской прародине колесницы, то бремя (надо полагать, непосильное) доказательства по-прежнему лежит на утверждающей стороне.

    Назначение.

    Боевое назначение евразийских колесниц далеко не очевидно. Использование их, их частей, имитаций, символики и просто упряжи в погребальном обряде, строго говоря, свидетельствуют только о культовом значении.
    Не подтверждают иного и изобразительные материалы евразийской степи-лесостепи.
    Имеющие своим прототипом древневосточную колесницу, ее евразийские дериваты упрощены и возможно не вполне функциональны (в плане боевых качеств). Вообще сомнительно, что в обществах эпохи бронзы евразийской степи лесостепи имелись условия (да и сама потребность) в раскрытии потенциала древневосточной колесницы именно как средства ведения боя. Одиночные колесницы довольно беспомощны в сражении (и никак не могут оказать ошеломляющего психологического эффекта, о котором часто пишут). Как показывает древневосточная практика, колесницы эффективны при условии их более-менее крупных формирований и только в крупных (сотни и тысячи участников) сражениях (Горелик, 1985. С. 193, др.; Кожин, 1985. С. 175, др.).
    Создание и обеспечение (ремонт, запчасти и т. п.) массовых отрядов колесниц требует крупной, высокотехнологичной,
    в известной степени стандартизированной отрасли ремесленного производства,
    труднопредставимой в обществах эпохи бронзы евразийской степи-лесостепи (во всяком случае, следов ее пока не обнаружено ни на одном поселении).
    Еще труднее представить себе массовые баталии на этих пространствах в рассматриваемую эпоху с почти тотальной неукрепленностью поселений.

    Значение.

    Колесница, стремительно, но ненадолго, вошедшая на рубеже средней и поздней бронзы в обиход элиты разнокультурных обществ евразийской степи-лесостепи как культовый и статусный артефакт, нашла свое место в религиозных представлениях, но вряд ли оказала существенное влияние на жизнь населения, познакомившегося с ней. Быстрое исчезновение колесниц в евразийской степи-лесостепи в позднем бронзовом веке (еще за несколько веков до появления конницы, с которой, как правило, это исчезновение связывается) дополнительно свидетельствует о ее невостребованности в указанном регионе.
    Для сравнения, в Средиземноморье колесницы существуют (в т.ч. и после появления конницы) до конца Древнего мира.
    Last edited by Ral; 02-11-2018 at 09:21 PM.

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