Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 44

Thread: Early Bronze Age Levantines: Reflecting a Kura-Araxes Migration from Armenia?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    54
    Sex

    Early Bronze Age Levantines: Reflecting a Kura-Araxes Migration from Armenia?

    Lazaridis et al (2016) in their monumental analysis find (see PC Plot in the main paper and Y SNPs) that the Early Bronze Age Levantines from near Amman Jordan are 1) J1 and likely J2b1-M205 and cluster between the Neolithic Levantines/Natufians and the Early Bronze Age Armenians (Kura-Araxes). We know that archaeologically there was a massive migration from Armenia/East Anatolia to the Levant near the Jordanian samples during the EBA (3500 BCE in north--Armenia/East Anatolia, 2600 BCE in Israel/Jordan--Khirbet Kerak culture). Could this first appearance of J1 in the Levant during the EBA track this movement?

  2. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to royking For This Useful Post:

     Bas (06-20-2016), Hando (06-19-2016), Leroy Jenkins (06-18-2016), Odyss (06-18-2016), RCO (06-19-2016), Yaroslav (06-19-2016)

  3. #2
    Banned
    Posts
    120
    Sex

    I would associate this with J2b , yes .

    Which massive migration are you refering to? I would like to read about it. Post the source or the références thanks
    Last edited by Odyss; 06-18-2016 at 10:57 PM.

  4. #3
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    3,515
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA
    J1-YSC234 (Z18271+)
    mtDNA
    J1c5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    That doesn't sound all that likely to me, first off the only Kura Araxes sample we have so far (I1635) is R1b-M415, not J1, not J2. Besides where did you read that the first EBA sample is likely to be J2b-M205? Just curious, it wouldn't exactly be far-fetched since this marker is bound to have been more common by the past. Either way, I think the most plausible scenario relates to the dispersal of the earliest Central Semitic and NW Semitic speakers, if the J1 sample turns out to be YSC234 this scenario will basically be confirmed.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  5. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Arame (06-19-2016), Awale (06-21-2016), Hando (06-19-2016), Leroy Jenkins (06-18-2016), Odyss (06-19-2016), Padre Organtino (06-23-2016), Viktor Reznov (06-21-2016), ZephyrousMandaru (06-18-2016)

  6. #4
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Yes I agree with Agamemnon.
    The K-A impact on the Levant shouldn't be over-estimated. Unlike the south Caucasus - east Anatolia & NW Iran arena - where it was a wholehearted phenomenon, genetically tangible, I think toward Syria it starts becoming cross-frontier trade and selective adaptation.
    There are several key studies on this, Roy. I can list a few later on in the week if you want

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-19-2016), Awale (06-21-2016), Hando (06-19-2016), Leroy Jenkins (06-18-2016)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    54
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Odyss View Post
    I would associate this with J2b , yes .

    Which massive migration are you refering to? I would like to read about it. Post the source or the références thanks
    A good review is as follows: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9190.abstract

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to royking For This Useful Post:

     Saetro (06-19-2016), Yaroslav (06-19-2016)

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    54
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yes I agree with Agamemnon.
    The K-A impact on the Levant shouldn't be over-estimated. Unlike the south Caucasus - east Anatolia & NW Iran arena - where it was a wholehearted phenomenon, genetically tangible, I think toward Syria it starts becoming cross-frontier trade and selective adaptation.
    There are several key studies on this, Roy. I can list a few later on in the week if you want
    Thanks, but from my archaeological information via ASOR meetings, Khirbet Kerak in the Galilee appears to show a large population immigration with major red-black ware found in the EBIII stratum. My argument is that J1 (which appears to originate in the North--Dagestan/Armnenia/Eastern Anatolia) makes its first appearance in the EBA in Jordan. For the other sample being J2b1, we know that it is not J1, not J2a, not J2b2 and J2b1-M205 has its highest frequency in Jordan and South Syria from our recent Cyprus paper in Investigative Genetics.

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to royking For This Useful Post:

     ADW_1981 (06-19-2016), Hando (06-19-2016), J1 DYS388=13 (06-19-2016), Pribislav (06-19-2016)

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,242
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA
    U4b1a2 - FGS

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    That doesn't sound all that likely to me, first off the only Kura Araxes sample we have so far (I1635) is R1b-M415, not J1, not J2. Besides where did you read that the first EBA sample is likely to be J2b-M205? Just curious, it wouldn't exactly be far-fetched since this marker is bound to have been more common by the past. Either way, I think the most plausible scenario relates to the dispersal of the earliest Central Semitic and NW Semitic speakers, if the J1 sample turns out to be YSC234 this scenario will basically be confirmed.
    How and where did I1635 come from? There wasn't any mention of it in the main thread of this paper yesterday. Honestly haven't a chance to look at the paper yet.

    Nonetheless, from the Admixture graphs I have seen, Armenian samples were the only Middle Eastern group to show significant WHG/EHG mixture (red colour). If this is a R1b1(xM269) sample within a Kura-Araxes context, it most likely arrived from the north, by means of the steppe along the western Caspian and not as native to the Caucasus region.

    Found a fairly old layman blog entry on this culture at Dienekes':
    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/07/...n-culture.html

    I can definitely see some rationale for CHG melting into a WHG/EHG rich steppe along with kurgans and metallurgy during this period. It seems linked with R1b at minimum. On the other hand, modern Azerbaijan is chock-full of R1b (Z2103 Yamnaya-like), but also J1 (xP58). I can see the latter being more strongly linked with the Neolithic_Iran component (CHG-like). Difficult to determine the linguistics though.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 06-19-2016 at 02:36 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     Generalissimo (06-19-2016), Hando (06-19-2016), Michał (06-20-2016), Pribislav (06-19-2016)

  14. #8
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    How and where did I1635 come from? There wasn't any mention of it in the main thread of this paper yesterday. Honestly haven't a chance to look at the paper yet.

    Nonetheless, from the Admixture graphs I have seen, Armenian samples were the only Middle Eastern group to show significant WHG/EHG mixture (red colour). If this is a R1b1(xM269) sample within a Kura-Araxes context, it most likely arrived from the north, by means of the steppe along the western Caspian and not as native to the Caucasus region.
    It was not included in the original results table. Rozenfeld noticed a male KA specimen but with no Y DNA results. The team was emailed about a missing result, and they tweeted it after checking.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-19-2016), Arame (06-19-2016), Awale (06-21-2016), Hando (06-19-2016)

  16. #9
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by royking View Post
    Thanks, but from my archaeological information via ASOR meetings, Khirbet Kerak in the Galilee appears to show a large population immigration with major red-black ware found in the EBIII stratum. My argument is that J1 (which appears to originate in the North--Dagestan/Armnenia/Eastern Anatolia) makes its first appearance in the EBA in Jordan. For the other sample being J2b1, we know that it is not J1, not J2a, not J2b2 and J2b1-M205 has its highest frequency in Jordan and South Syria from our recent Cyprus paper in Investigative Genetics.
    Fair enough, perhaps an isolated outpost ?
    is there evidence of movement to the Levant from elsewhere, like Mesopotamia (from where we currently lack samples)

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     Hando (06-19-2016)

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,671
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    How and where did I1635 come from? There wasn't any mention of it in the main thread of this paper yesterday. Honestly haven't a chance to look at the paper yet.

    Nonetheless, from the Admixture graphs I have seen, Armenian samples were the only Middle Eastern group to show significant WHG/EHG mixture (red colour). If this is a R1b1(xM269) sample within a Kura-Araxes context, it most likely arrived from the north, by means of the steppe along the western Caspian and not as native to the Caucasus region.
    Yeah, the placement of Armenia_EBA in the PCA (pulling up towards the steppe), and its age, more or less the same as Steppe_EMBA, suggest gene flow from the steppe to Armenia already during the Early Bronze Age.

  19. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     ADW_1981 (06-19-2016), Coldmountains (06-19-2016), Hando (06-19-2016), jesus (06-19-2016), Michał (06-20-2016)

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 856
    Last Post: 06-01-2017, 07:54 PM
  2. Early Bronze Age to roman era DNA from Syria
    By soulblighter in forum Other
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-17-2016, 07:43 AM
  3. New Bronze Age Irish Migration Paper
    By castle3 in forum R
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-30-2015, 11:57 AM
  4. Replies: 124
    Last Post: 04-07-2015, 09:22 PM
  5. A role for Kura-Araxes in the spread of V88?
    By alan in forum R1b Early Subclades
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 07-26-2013, 04:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •