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Thread: Early Bronze Age Levantines: Reflecting a Kura-Araxes Migration from Armenia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yeah, the placement of Armenia_EBA in the PCA (pulling up towards the steppe), and its age, more or less the same as Steppe_EMBA, suggest gene flow from the steppe to Armenia already during the Early Bronze Age.
    What about Chalcolithic Armenians(4000 BC) ? They seem closer the steppe than Armenia EBA. Does that suggest an older steppe gene flow in Armenia ?
    Last edited by jesus; 06-19-2016 at 04:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    What about Chalcolithic Armenians(4000 BC) ? They seem closer the steppe than Armenia EBA. Does that suggest an older steppe gene flow in Armenia ?
    Good point. I don't know.

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    .... or flow from a third source

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    What about Chalcolithic Armenians(4000 BC) ? They seem closer the steppe than Armenia EBA. Does that suggest an older steppe gene flow in Armenia ?
    Perhaps, but I wouldn't read into the fact that they were L1 all that much. It's possible that L1 arrived from Steppe admixture, but R1b seems the more likely candidate in eastern Armenia. Perhaps all 3 L1 samples were all from the same family? That haplogroup represents a far smaller fraction than the R1b-Z2103 Armenian lineages in modern day. Keep in mind that the Steppe admixture picks up even more in the later Bronze Age Armenian samples, whom I think were at least 2x R1b from the earlier paper.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 06-19-2016 at 06:54 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Could this first appearance of J1 in the Levant during the EBA track this movement?
    I am sceptic of that. Mfa already posted here BA Jordan is better modelled as a mixture of Iran_N and Levant_N. This of course doesn't mean he is straight from Zagros. I suppose Mesopotamia was from very early times a mixture of Levant_N and Iran_N/Chl.
    So that J1 guy was probably a Mesopotamian herder. I think J1 people were semi nomadic herders not sedentary cereal farmers.

    In the other thread I used poor wordings about the origin of J1-P58. This dendrogram shows Yemenite branch splits the earliest. And lets not forget P58 is a 11500 years old. A lot off botllenecks and founder effects happened.

    Caution. The guy who made this dendrogram uses a faster mutation rate. So dates could be different from Yfull.

    Last edited by Arame; 06-19-2016 at 08:11 AM.

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    Guys some caution here is needed.
    It is possible that this R1b guy represents a sort of transitionary period from Kura-Arax ( known also as Shengavit ) to MBA/LBA cultures. In reality his age makes him closer to MBA rather than to EBA. A sample from older Kur-Arax layers are definitevly needed. I mean male sample.

    The Middle and Late Bronze Age marked a sharp difference from the earlier Shengavit (Kur-Arax) culture. Old sites are mostly abandoned, and new sites begin. The main feature was the advent of large numbers of sometimes very rich burials often covered by large barrows known as Kurgans, the actual burials being made in deep pits, called pit burials.

    Some of these burials contain the remains of wagons or carts. The earlier ones were four wheeled wagons, presumably hauled by oxen, the later ones were chariots pulled by horses. It is a matter of considerable debate as to when the changeover took place, and when horse drawn chariots were first introduced.

    There is much discussion as to how far these changes, particularly the introduction of the Kurgan burials and the wagons come from the north, from Russia where Kurgan burials had long been established. Traditionally this was seen as the coming of the Indo-Europeans though modern discussion is far less certain about this.
    http://www.armeniapast.com/prehistory/bronze-age/

    One of this MLBA sculptures.
    Last edited by Arame; 06-19-2016 at 08:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    That doesn't sound all that likely to me, first off the only Kura Araxes sample we have so far (I1635) is R1b-M415, not J1, not J2.
    It's only one sample and I think it doesn't exclude the possibility of J1 and J2 presence in the Kuro-Araxes culture. Besides I can explain the arrival of J1-Z1842 in the North-Eastern Caucasus only by the spread of the Kura-Araxes culture from the Southern Caucasus there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Besides where did you read that the first EBA sample is likely to be J2b-M205? Just curious, it wouldn't exactly be far-fetched since this marker is bound to have been more common by the past.
    I1730 sample is J (xJ1, J2a, J2b2a). So it's quite possible, I think, that he can be J2b1 as Roy King supposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Either way, I think the most plausible scenario relates to the dispersal of the earliest Central Semitic and NW Semitic speakers, if the J1 sample turns out to be YSC234 this scenario will basically be confirmed.
    Isn't I1705 sample J1 (xJ1a)? Lazaridis et al. used the ISOGG 2014 nomenclature. In this case I1705 sample is confirmed Z2215 negative, and Z2215 in the ancestral SNP to YSC234. So if I am not wrong I1705 is either J1* or J1-F4306.
    Last edited by Yaroslav; 06-19-2016 at 09:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Guys some caution here is needed.
    It is possible that this R1b guy represents a sort of transitionary period from Kura-Arax ( known also as Shengavit ) to MBA/LBA cultures. In reality his age makes him closer to MBA rather than to EBA. A sample from older Kur-Arax layers are definitevly needed. I mean male sample.



    http://www.armeniapast.com/prehistory/bronze-age/

    One of this MLBA sculptures.
    Yes its a distinct possibility, this guy dates from 2700 BC

    It is seen that the K-A began to end, transform or continue (depending on specific sub-region concerned) from 2500 BC.

    Eg THE KURA-ARAXES CULTURE FROM THE CAUCASUS TO IRAN, ANATOLIA AND THE LEVANT: BETWEEN UNITY AND DIVERSITY. A SYNTHESIS

    Early Bronze Age migrants and ethnicity in the Middle Eastern mountain zone.

    (both should be available on line).

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    Quote Originally Posted by royking View Post
    Thanks, but from my archaeological information via ASOR meetings, Khirbet Kerak in the Galilee appears to show a large population immigration with major red-black ware found in the EBIII stratum. My argument is that J1 (which appears to originate in the North--Dagestan/Armnenia/Eastern Anatolia) makes its first appearance in the EBA in Jordan. For the other sample being J2b1, we know that it is not J1, not J2a, not J2b2 and J2b1-M205 has its highest frequency in Jordan and South Syria from our recent Cyprus paper in Investigative Genetics.
    That claim doesn't make much sense as none of the samples from Chalcolithic Armenia and Ganj Dareh were J1, you'd expect at least a couple to show up considering the fact that SE Anatolia and the Zagros are often singled out as J1's homeland but no, there's none to be found so far. As for Dagestan, the northern parts of the Caucasus don't exactly strike me as a potential source for J1, let alone a place of high J1 diversity. So there's that. Otherwise I agree with you on I1730, it's quite likely he's actually J2b1-M205.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaroslav View Post
    It's only one sample and I think it doesn't exclude the possibility of J1 and J2 presence in the Kuro-Araxes culture. Besides I can explain the arrival of J1-Z1842 in the North-Eastern Caucasus only by the spread of the Kura-Araxes culture from the Southern Caucasus there.
    Sure, it's only one sample. Yet in the meantime, the area encompassing SE Anatolia and NW Iran (Taurus/Zagros/Transcaucasus) is often singled out as J1's homeland, and now that none of the samples found in this area are J1 I'd go as far as to say that the "only one sample" factoid sounds like special pleading. Now I'm not saying other branches of J1 could not have spread with Kuro-Araxes, Z1842 as you pointed out is a very good candidate, nevertheless the sheer paucity of J1 in the ancient samples from Armenia does a big disfavour to any kind of theory linking J1's arrival in the Levant with the Khirbet Kerak culture.


    I1730 sample is J (xJ1, J2a, J2b2a). So it's quite possible, I think, that he can be J2b1 as Roy King supposed.
    Yes, I agree with Roy King on this.


    Isn't I1705 sample J1 (xJ1a)? Lazaridis et al. used the ISOGG 2014 nomenclature. In this case I1705 sample is confirmed Z2215 negative, and Z2215 in the ancestral SNP to YSC234. So if I am not wrong I1705 is either J1* or J1-F4306.
    This is what we read in the sup data:

    "Levant_BA
    I1705: J1(xJ1a)
    This individual belonged to haplogroup J1, supported by mutation M267. It was ancestral for
    haplogroup J1a (M365.1) and could be designated J1(xJ1a).
    Haplogroup J1 is common in
    present-day Levantine populations10 and our result documents its earliest existence in the
    Bronze Age Levant.
    "

    ^^So unless I'm reading this wrong, when they write that I1705 could be designated "J1(xJ1a)" what they really mean is J1(xM365.1), Z2215 isn't mentioned here. M365 is a pretty basal branch of J1, about ~10 kya old and extremely rare in the Levant, so I'm not exactly surprised to see that this sample isn't M365. So again, it's pretty likely I1705 is YSC234.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-19-2016 at 09:49 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Sure, it's only one sample. Yet in the meantime, the area encompassing SE Anatolia and NW Iran (Taurus/Zagros/Transcaucasus) is often singled out as J1's homeland, and now that none of the samples found in this area are J1 I'd go as far as to say that the "only one sample" factoid sounds like special pleading. Now I'm not saying other branches of J1 could not have spread with Kuro-Araxes, Z1842 as you pointed out is a very good candidate, nevertheless the sheer paucity of J1 in the ancient samples from Armenia does a big disfavour to any kind of theory linking J1's arrival in the Levant with the Khirbet Kerak culture.
    Anyway just imagine if we take only 4 or 5 samples from the modern-day Armenians, for example, and make judgments about their gene pool. We are living now just in the beginning of the ancient DNA information accumulation period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    This is what we read in the sup data:

    "Levant_BA
    I1705: J1(xJ1a)
    This individual belonged to haplogroup J1, supported by mutation M267. It was ancestral for
    haplogroup J1a (M365.1) and could be designated J1(xJ1a).
    Haplogroup J1 is common in
    present-day Levantine populations10 and our result documents its earliest existence in the
    Bronze Age Levant.
    "

    ^^So unless I'm reading this wrong, when they write that I1705 could be designated "J1(xJ1a)" what they really mean is J1(xM365.1), Z2215 isn't mentioned here. M365 is a pretty basal branch of J1, about ~10 kya old and extremely rare in the Levant, so I'm not exactly surprised to see that this sample isn't M365. So again, it's pretty likely I1705 is YSC234.
    Sorry I missed this information. Strange enough, the authors wrote: To determine the Y-chromosome haplogroup of male individuals, we used the nomenclature of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (http://www.isogg.org) v. 9.129 (accessed Dec. 08, 2014). According to ISOGG 2014 M365.1 corresponds to J1a1 while J1a corresponds to Z2215 in ISOGG 2014.

    In this case, yes, he may be of some P58 branch of course.

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