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Thread: Early Bronze Age Levantines: Reflecting a Kura-Araxes Migration from Armenia?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaroslav View Post
    Anyway just imagine if we take only 4 or 5 samples from the modern-day Armenians, for example, and make judgments about their gene pool. We are living now just in the beginning of the ancient DNA information accumulation period.
    I hear you, like I said I don't think J1 will be absent in the Kuro-Araxes horizon, I'd be astounded if that were the case, on the other hand I have a hard time reconciling the current evidence with all the theories ascribing J1's origins to the Transcaucasus/Taurus-Zagros region and linking its dispersal with agriculture (the same could be said about J2). Admittedly we're just scratching the surface at this point, far more data is needed so as always, never say never.


    Sorry I missed this information. Strange enough, the authors wrote: To determine the Y-chromosome haplogroup of male individuals, we used the nomenclature of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (http://www.isogg.org) v. 9.129 (accessed Dec. 08, 2014). According to ISOGG 2014 M365.1 corresponds to J1a1 while J1a corresponds to Z2215 in ISOGG 2014.

    In this case, yes, he may be of some P58 branch of course.
    I1705 is at the right place at the right time to be associated with the earliest NW Semitic speakers (probably Amorite for all I know), I have a hard time seeing how this sample could not be YSC234.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I hear you, like I said I don't think J1 will be absent in the Kuro-Araxes horizon, I'd be astounded if that were the case, on the other hand I have a hard time reconciling the current evidence with all the theories ascribing J1's origins to the Transcaucasus/Taurus-Zagros region and linking its dispersal with agriculture (the same could be said about J2). Admittedly we're just scratching the surface at this point, far more data is needed so as always, never say never.
    I quite assume that J1 had the same low percentage those times in those regions (Transcaucasus/Taurus-Zagros) as it has now. Then it became prosperous in the Southern Middle East (Levant and especially Arabian Peninsula) and in the North-Eastern Caucasus (Chechnya and especially Dagestan) after J1s migrated to those regions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I1705 is at the right place at the right time to be associated with the earliest NW Semitic speakers (probably Amorite for all I know), I have a hard time seeing how this sample could not be YSC234.
    According to the modern-day situation, yes. But ancient DNA likes to make us surprises I am waiting for his BAM file with impatience.
    Last edited by Yaroslav; 06-19-2016 at 11:05 AM.

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    I could just as easily retort with J1b found in the Caucasus hunter-gatherer in Satsurblia as being the only one sample. Sure, the branch of J1 in Satsurblia is quite basal, but the same can be said of I1705. In fact, I think it belongs to the same clade I belong to, J1a. If the subclade of J1 which I1705 belongs to is about 10,000 years old, I find it very odd that this Neolithic Levantine and the Caucasus hunter-gatherer are highly genetically differentiated (which they are), 3,000 years is not enough time for these two ancient samples to become that genetically diversified from one another. In fact, I'd hazard to guess that if the Caucasus hunter-gatherers were ancestral to the Neolithic farmers who were carriers of J, they'd cluster much more closely to one another on the PCA plot.
    Last edited by ZephyrousMandaru; 06-19-2016 at 11:20 AM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Perhaps, but I wouldn't read into the fact that they were L1 all that much. It's possible that L1 arrived from Steppe admixture, but R1b seems the more likely candidate in eastern Armenia. Perhaps all 3 L1 samples were all from the same family? That haplogroup represents a far smaller fraction than the R1b-Z2103 Armenian lineages in modern day. Keep in mind that the Steppe admixture picks up even more in the later Bronze Age Armenian samples, whom I think were at least 2x R1b from the earlier paper.
    It's highly unlikely that L1 is of steppe origin. It's almost absent in Europe, it peaks in areas like the levant/northern Afghanistan/south Asia. One Armenian ChL sample has mtDNA H2a1 (found in Yamnaya).

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    Also, in the mixture model Armenia ChL scores the highest EHG in Armenian samples at 18.3%


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  11. #26
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    Curiously, there was also a Bronze Age Hungarian sample which carried J as well (BR2 L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture Ludas-Varju-dulo 1,110–1,270 BC mtDNA K1a1a yDNA J2a1).
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 06-19-2016 at 09:00 PM.

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  13. #27
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    If that other BA Jordanian is really J2b1-M205 then it's very interesting.
    This is the map of J2b1. The second (b) map .

    Source http://www.nature.com/articles/srep19157/figures/2

    Last edited by Arame; 06-20-2016 at 08:04 AM.

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    Here's a better map of J2b1-M205:

    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  17. #29
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    I think I1705 will be YSC76, or probably a branch of YSC76, that's the most plausible outcome if he indeed is YSC234.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I1705 is at the right place at the right time to be associated with the earliest NW Semitic speakers (probably Amorite for all I know), I have a hard time seeing how this sample could not be YSC234.
    "The calls show that I1705 belonged to Y haplogroup J1a2b-Z2324" https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1705/

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