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Thread: Ancient Thrace and Sardinia

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    Ancient Thrace and Sardinia

    Hi to everyone

    Can you tell me if there is any evidence of a genetic flow between Sardinia and Thrace in the Bronze Age?

    Thanks

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    I think that if there was any flow of that sort,modern Sardinia would have had a higher Caucasus affinity, but then again I'm just speculating.

    Bronze Age Montenegro, for example, had a good chunk of Caucasus affinity:

    Last edited by sciencediver; 07-10-2016 at 09:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Hi to everyone

    Can you tell me if there is any evidence of a genetic flow between Sardinia and Thrace in the Bronze Age?

    Thanks
    I'm not sure if there was anything specific or direct from Thrace to Sardinia; but as SD suggested, some movements out of Anatolia or near east might have impacted both regions ; but it's difficult to say without much full- genomic aDNA

    Southeastern Europe will be very complex, I'm sure, so let's wait and see
    Some aDNA is on the way from a couple of teams at least

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Hi to everyone

    Can you tell me if there is any evidence of a genetic flow between Sardinia and Thrace in the Bronze Age?
    Welcome to the forum Teresa!

    We don't have ancient DNA to help us with this, but a study of the modern DNA of Sardinians is extremely interesting.* By looking at the number of mutations that are specific to Sardinians in various Y-DNA lines, it could trace not only the original settlement of Sardinia in the Neolithic, but newcomers in what the authors call the Late Neolithic, but was actually the Balkan Copper Age.

    Our data further suggest a more intricate scenario of Sardinian demographic history. Specifically, clades of E, R, and G that show Sardinian specific variability of 25 to 30 SNPs are consistent with further expansion in the Late Neolithic (~5500 to 6000 years ago).
    *Paolo Francalacci et al., European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny, Science 341, 565 (2013).

    This is reasonably consistent with the copper-working Ozieri culture, which I suggest was fed by a flow of people escaping the crash of the Balkan copper-working cultures c. 4000 BC.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-10-2016 at 11:44 AM.

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    I thank you very much for your answers, and your polite welcome
    The reason of my question is to solve an archeological mystery I'm thinking about in this period.
    Maybe you know the Sardinian nuragic sacred wells, dated roughly to middle/end of the Bronze Age. Their architecture shows clear influences from minoic-mycenean culture, being the same of some cisterns found in the Aegean area: the Fons Perseia at Mycenae is a good example.
    The difference is that this kind of construction developed in Sardinia the function of a temple for the water cult, as proved by archeological (remains of sacrifices, ex voto...) and folkloric evidences.
    There are about thirty known sacred wells in Sardinia. Is there any example of them outside the island? Yes, there is one, in Bulgaria, near the village of Garlo. It is not only similar, but almost identical to the sacred well of Funtana Coperta near Ballao, in Sardinia.

    How could this fact be explained?
    I have two hypotesis:
    1) some Bronze Age Thracians, maybe of the tribe of Sardi/Serdi whence came the name of the town of Serdika (Sofia), went south and joined the Sea Peoples during the Bronze Age collapse, finally ending in the island called at the time Ichnusa and then Sardinia from their name. But some persons decided to return to their fatherland, and brought with them the knowledge to build a sacred well where they settled down.
    2) some people from Sardinia joined the Sea Peoples in their raids, finally ending in Thrace where they were then recorded as Sardi/Serdi. They then built a sacred well in the area of actual Garlo.
    (There are other similarities that link Sardinia and Bulgaria, but I think they date back to Neolithic/Eneolithic, so I don't write of them here)

    The two hypotesis I made (which I find unsatisfactory anyway) need the migration of an amount of people large enough to explain a change of name for my island, or the settlement of a new tribe in Thrace, so a gene flow between the two lands in this period is to be expected.

    If you have any other hypotesis, please tell me
    Last edited by Teresa; 07-12-2016 at 03:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    I thank you very much for your answers, and your polite welcome
    The reason of my question is to solve an archeological mystery I'm thinking about in this period.
    Maybe you know the Sardinian nuragic sacred wells, dated roughly to middle/end of the Bronze Age. Their architecture shows clear influences from minoic-mycenean culture, being the same of some cisterns found in the Aegean area: the Fons Perseia at Mycenae is a good example.
    The difference is that this kind of construction developed in Sardinia the function of a temple for the water cult, as proved by archeological (remains of sacrifices, ex voto...) and folkloric evidences.
    There are about thirty known sacred wells in Sardinia. Is there any example of them outside the island? Yes, there is one, in Bulgaria, near the village of Garlo. It is not only similar, but almost identical to the sacred well of Funtana Coperta near Ballao, in Sardinia.

    How could this fact be explained?
    I have two hypotesis:
    1) some Bronze Age Thracians, maybe of the tribe of Sardi/Serdi whence came the name of the town of Serdika (Sofia), went south and joined the Sea Peoples during the Bronze Age collapse, finally ending in the island called at the time Ichnusa and then Sardinia from their name. But some persons decided to return to their fatherland, and brought with them the knowledge to build a sacred well where they settled down.
    2) some people from Sardinia joined the Sea Peoples in their raids, finally ending in Thrace where they were then recorded as Sardi/Serdi. They then built a sacred well in the area of actual Garlo.
    (There are other similarities that link Sardinia and Bulgaria, but I think they date back to Neolithic/Eneolithic, so I don't write of them here)

    The two hypotesis I made (which I find unsatisfactory anyway) need the migration of an amount of people large enough to explain a change of name for my island, or the settlement of a new tribe in Thrace, so a gene flow between the two lands in this period is to be expected.

    If you have any other hypotesis, please tell me
    i very much doubt the Serdi had anything to do with Sardinian Neuragic civilization, becuase they are an Iron Age people. Which means they are not Sea Peoples either.
    In fact, I think the entire historicity of 'Sea Peoples' is rather dubious, but something more generalist oriented historians often run with as something which explains certain events without actually explaining them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    I thank you very much for your answers, and your polite welcome
    The reason of my question is to solve an archeological mystery I'm thinking about in this period.
    Maybe you know the Sardinian nuragic sacred wells, dated roughly to middle/end of the Bronze Age. Their architecture shows clear influences from minoic-mycenean culture, being the same of some cisterns found in the Aegean area: the Fons Perseia at Mycenae is a good example.
    The difference is that this kind of construction developed in Sardinia the function of a temple for the water cult, as proved by archeological (remains of sacrifices, ex voto...) and folkloric evidences.
    There are about thirty known sacred wells in Sardinia. Is there any example of them outside the island? Yes, there is one, in Bulgaria, near the village of Garlo. It is not only similar, but almost identical to the sacred well of Funtana Coperta near Ballao, in Sardinia.

    How could this fact be explained?
    I have two hypotesis:
    1) some Bronze Age Thracians, maybe of the tribe of Sardi/Serdi whence came the name of the town of Serdika (Sofia), went south and joined the Sea Peoples during the Bronze Age collapse, finally ending in the island called at the time Ichnusa and then Sardinia from their name. But some persons decided to return to their fatherland, and brought with them the knowledge to build a sacred well where they settled down.
    2) some people from Sardinia joined the Sea Peoples in their raids, finally ending in Thrace where they were then recorded as Sardi/Serdi. They then built a sacred well in the area of actual Garlo.
    (There are other similarities that link Sardinia and Bulgaria, but I think they date back to Neolithic/Eneolithic, so I don't write of them here)

    The two hypotesis I made (which I find unsatisfactory anyway) need the migration of an amount of people large enough to explain a change of name for my island, or the settlement of a new tribe in Thrace, so a gene flow between the two lands in this period is to be expected.

    If you have any other hypotesis, please tell me
    I read this theory
    http://www.narit.or.th/en/files/2014.....17..222T.pdf

    and IIRC it is or was part of the new Luwian studies ..............that is , the thracians are the northern neighbours of the "luwians" in Bithnyia ( Anatolia)............the Luwian confederation are now said to represent the sea-peoples ( you say some could be Sardi )...................I have not researched it enough to make a clear comment.
    https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...chBuKjYMdle.97

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    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Maybe you know the Sardinian nuragic sacred wells, dated roughly to middle/end of the Bronze Age. Their architecture shows clear influences from minoic-mycenean culture, being the same of some cisterns found in the Aegean area: the Fons Perseia at Mycenae is a good example.
    The difference is that this kind of construction developed in Sardinia the function of a temple for the water cult, as proved by archeological (remains of sacrifices, ex voto...) and folkloric evidences.

    There are about thirty known sacred wells in Sardinia. Is there any example of them outside the island? Yes, there is one, in Bulgaria, near the village of Garlo. It is not only similar, but almost identical to the sacred well of Funtana Coperta near Ballao, in Sardinia.
    Thank you so much for introducing this topic. It is fascinating. Since you brought it up, I have now read Lyubomir Tsonev and Dimiter Kolev 2014, mentioned on the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_pit_of_Garlo

    They say:

    The cult of underground water has its origins in Mesopotamia, with the Sumerian god Enki, who was the god of underground water, the god of fertility and the keeper of the world order. Most of these underground water temples are localised to the island of Sardinia .. where between 30 and 40 are known. Beyond this island there are only two isolated examples: one is at Panticapaeum (modern-day Kerch) on the Crimean Peninsula, and the other is at the village of Garlo in Western Bulgaria.
    So we have another, which is an added complication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    In fact, I think the entire historicity of 'Sea Peoples' is rather dubious
    Last night I began reading Eric H. Cline, 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed (2014). http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10185.html

    As he says, the old habit of explaining the Bronze Age collapse simply as the work of the "Sea Peoples" has given way to a more complex view, incorporating understanding of natural events such as climate change and their effects on complex societies. However that does not mean that the "Sea Peoples" did not exist.

    Naturally, we need to be cautious in the interpretation of the historical evidence about them, as with all historical evidence. Some archaeologists have been known to take that general warning from historians as a red light not to believe any type of written/inscribed evidence at all at any time! Makes me laugh a lot. As Barry Cunliffe says, there is no such thing as a fact in archaeology. The discipline is all interpretation of the material evidence.

    One of the associated migrations that nobody really doubts is being discussed on another thread here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...al-Philistines
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-12-2016 at 06:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Last night I began reading Eric H. Cline, 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed (2014). http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10185.html

    As he says, the old habit of explaining the Bronze Age collapse simply as the work of the "Sea Peoples" has given way to a more complex view, incorporating understanding of natural events such as climate change and their effects on complex societies. However that does not mean that the "Sea Peoples" did not exist.

    Naturally, we need to be cautious in the interpretation of the historical evidence about them, as with all historical evidence. Some archaeologists have been known to take that general warning from historians as a red light not to believe any type of written/inscribed evidence at all at any time! Makes me laugh a lot. As Barry Cunliffe says, there is no such thing as a fact in archaeology. The discipline is all interpretation of the material evidence.

    One of the associated migrations that nobody really doubts is being discussed on another thread here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...al-Philistines
    Yes I think the "Sea Peoples' subsumes opportunistic invasions in wake of collapses, which otherwise had no over-arching connection to each other.
    But my main point was that most "Thracian" tribes formed in the immediate pre-Roman, & Roman period. There were no Odrysae or Serdae in 1200 BC, so they're relevance to Bronze Age collapse is essentially zero.

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