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Thread: Ancient Thrace and Sardinia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    We don't have ancient DNA to help us with this, but a study of the modern DNA of Sardinians is extremely interesting.* By looking at the number of mutations that are specific to Sardinians in various Y-DNA lines, it could trace not only the original settlement of Sardinia in the Neolithic, but newcomers in what the authors call the Late Neolithic, but was actually the Balkan Copper Age.



    *Paolo Francalacci et al., European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny, Science 341, 565 (2013).

    This is reasonably consistent with the copper-working Ozieri culture, which I suggest was fed by a flow of people escaping the crash of the Balkan copper-working cultures c. 4000 BC.
    This is interesting. If the in the wake of collapses Balkan copper Age people moved seaward to Sardinia, do you think they could have moved northeast and northwest, overland , also ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    This is interesting. If the in the wake of collapses Balkan copper Age people moved seaward to Sardinia, do you think they could have moved northeast and northwest, overland , also ?
    To create the Funnel Beaker culture? Yes I say so in Ancestral Journeys. Not that I have any solid evidence for this in the form of a really distinctive aDNA signature, so it's just a suggestion. This is what I say:

    The TRB was once seen as the result of local foragers adopting animal husbandry and new technology from their neighbours. This idea has been overturned by studies of ancient DNA. The Funnel Beaker peoples mainly carried mtDNA haplogroups typical of early farmers. Evidently migration spread this new way of life.

    Copper axes and luxury wares from the Hungary-Serbia region travelled over 1000 km (620 miles) to the Baltic shore in the early 4th millennium BC. Another link lies in the Funnel Beaker pottery itself. Its decorative patterns were picked out with a paste made of bone. This technique originated in the Carpathian Basin. So the TRB may have been the result of farmers fleeing stricken settlements in the Balkans and Carpathian Basin for the milder climate of Northern Europe in this era. Later innovations such as wheeled vehicles, the plough and wool spinning seem to have fed into Funnel Beaker from its advanced southern neighbour, the Late Cucuteni-Tripolye culture.

    Genome-wide comparisons show that a Funnel Beaker female from Sweden and contemporary farmers from Germany, despite being most closely related to early European farmers, had somewhat more hunter gatherer ancestry. The same is true of their probable source population in Hungary, and indeed farmers in Spain between 4000 and 3000 BC. It seems that as farmers extended their territory, they absorbed some of the foragers who were being pushed to the fringes and ultimately to the extinction of their way of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    To create the Funnel Beaker culture? Yes I say so in Ancestral Journeys. Not that I have any solid evidence for this in the form of a really distinctive aDNA signature, so it's just a suggestion. This is what I say:
    I think it possible !
    I think some also moved toward C-T
    Let's wait and see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    But my main point was that most "Thracian" tribes formed in the immediate pre-Roman, & Roman period. There were no Odrysae or Serdae in 1200 BC, so they're relevance to Bronze Age collapse is essentially zero.
    Mmmmm... how can you be sure of it? Of course there is no record of such tribes before the Iron Age, because they dwelt far from Bronze Age literate populations. But they could exist as well. Or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    So we have another, which is an added complication.
    OMG!
    If you can find a photo or anything else let me know, I've found nothing online

    Thank you all for the comments

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    During the early to middle Bronze age the Balkans (at least what is now Bulgaria) was under 2 different influences.
    Using the funeral practices, those South of the Balkan mountains used "flat" graves and their culture was the one common in West Anatolia(Troy), Greece and the Aegean island.
    However North of the Balkan mountains there is clear evidence of the tumuli(kurgans) typical for the Yamnaya people.
    I think the Thracian are obviouslly connected to the steppe Bronze cultures as they were horse worshippers and practices kurgan burials.
    The Garlo temple is connected to the Minoan Aegean cultures and possibly the ""sea people". Some other archaeological evidence around this area of Bulgaria suggests this is not a coincidence. The reason could be the old mines and metalworking during the Bronze age and those who built the temple could be skilled people who migrated to the region to exploit the mines.
    See more photos on the Bulgarian Wikipedia version.
    https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93...BD%D0%B5%D1%86

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    Jean M, about the Crimean well it seems to be the asclepeion of Panticapaeum, a IV century b.C. temple. Similar but not so much. Anyway, I didn't find any picture of it.

    Eastara, of course the well of Garlo is connected with the Aegean culture, like the wells in Sardinia. But the difference is that only the Garlo's and Sardinia's wells had a cultual function, as proved by remains of animal sacrifices performed with a (double) axe. And moreover there is the fact that the structure and measures of the wells of Garlo and Funtana Coberta are almost identical, as the Sardinian engineer Massimo Rassu stated after visiting Garlo. Here is the link to what he wrote (in Italian) http://www.massimorassu.it/portal/se...13Bulgaria.htm

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    Why ignore female mtDNA haplogroups? U5b3 is prominent in Sardinia, with U5b2 also present. Back in the LGM, Sardinia and Corsica were connected to the mainland (Italy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    Why ignore female mtDNA haplogroups? U5b3 is prominent in Sardinia, with U5b2 also present. Back in the LGM, Sardinia and Corsica were connected to the mainland (Italy).
    Can you connect it with a Bronze Age migration?

    An earlier connection is detectable, both by genic correspondences, as you suggest, and by folkloric material: let's take a look at the Kukeri (expecially those of Breznik)



    and the Mamuthones of Mamoiada (and other related masks, many villages have their one)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Mmmmm... how can you be sure of it? Of course there is no record of such tribes before the Iron Age, because they dwelt far from Bronze Age literate populations. But they could exist as well. Or not?


    Sorry for late reply, i was on holiday

    That was not my point, for if it was i would be claiming that if someone doesn't exist in historical records, then they don't exist at all; which would obviously be a ludicrous proposition

    Rather the point i was trying to impress is that the process of polito- & ethnogenesis is a dynamic and fluctuant one, and both ethnographic data (eg the colonilistic impact on 'native tribes' in America & Africa), and re-analysis of ancient European tribes casts doubt on the old notions that tribes like 'Thracians', "Illyrians' & Celts formed in a linear, longue duree manner, since the Early Bronze. That is, an increasingly dated view (but one which is still seen amongst non-specialist historians and some eastern European scholars) was that Thracian tribes formed when a certain IE branch invaded future-Thrace, blendes with natives, and steadily progressed from there. This is correct only at a general level, in that we can agree that the 'biological' building blocks of future Thracian tribes were more or less formed by the Bronze Age.

    However, there was no such thing as "Serdi" or "Odrysae" in the Bronze Age. I can wage my house on that, because there was no centralised, chiefdom-come-kingdom type polities in Bronze Age Thracia. Instead, it might be characterised as containing egalitarian, or perhaps heterarchical communities of semi-pastoralists. There is probably little political - constitutional continuity between later polities like the Odryase and Serdi and any Bronze Age forebears, with rifts occuring after the Bronze Age, and new formation clearly evident in the archaeological record, such as shifts in settlement patters, agglomeration , and (most of all) development of heirarchy. The encroachment of Persia, Macedonian expansion, Greek colonists, and (later) Rome was instrumental in catalyzing such developments by enciting competition and unequal and privillaged access to 'exotic' goods, not to mention military support and alliances.

    But i cant do justice to it in a few lines. You'd need to become familiar with the theoretical underpinnings and then apply it to special cases, such as the Serdici. Ive not seen anything about the Serdi specifically, but for the Odrysae see the PhD below. I guess the take home message is many of the "tribes' listed by Roman and Greek sources were very recent formations, and have nothing directly to do with the bronze Age, let alone the "Sea Peoples' , which was constructed by much earlier scholarship in an attempt to construct a sort of one-answer-fits -all theory for why the "Bronze Age collapse" occurred. Now that we have far more excavations and better chronology, we know that the BA collapse has been over-trumped in many cases, and each individual region needs to be analysed on its own merit (eg the events in Greece were rather different to Anatolia, or Egypt). Ultimately, some nebulous, if at all existent, "Sea Peoples' were not the cause of the wide-spread changes c 2200 BC.

    See: "The Valley of the Kings? Social Complexity of Inland Thrace during the First Millennium BC" by Adela Sobotkova

    And "Contesting Identities of pre-Roman Illyricum' D Dzino

    Both available online, otherwise Id be happy to email them
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 07-31-2016 at 05:17 PM.

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    However, there was no such thing as "Serdi" or "Odrysae" in the Bronze Age. I can wage my house on that, because there was no centralised, chiefdom-come-kingdom type polities in Bronze Age Thracia. Instead, it might be characterised as containing egalitarian, or perhaps heterarchical communities of semi-pastoralists.
    Yes, that's okay, and I agree on your speech about the complexity of developement of tribes formation, but I am not trying to say that the structure of the tribes, and their relationships among themselves and a centralized power, was already established in Bronze Age and did not change in Iron Age. I am hypothesizing that one of the semi-pastoralist peoples you spoke of did call themselves "Sardi" or "Serdi", and that that the ethnonym managed to reach Iron Age somehow.
    Also an hypothesis is that the Sardi were among the Sea Peoples, whatever they would have (not) been or done , because of the name š3rdn reported in Egyptian documents.
    Any proof of these conjectures? Of course not. We have just the nuragic-style site of el-Ahwat to support the idea of the š3rdn being the Sardi of Sardinia.
    And a mysterious well near Garlo waiting for explanation

    See: "The Valley of the Kings? Social Complexity of Inland Thrace during the First Millennium BC" by Adela Sobotkova

    And "Contesting Identities of pre-Roman Illyricum' D Dzino
    Thanks, I will look for them
    Last edited by Teresa; 08-01-2016 at 09:04 PM.

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