Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 33

Thread: Origin of East Asians, Native Americans

  1. #1
    Banned
    Posts
    230
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Sino-Tibetan, Tungusic
    Y-DNA (P)
    O1-M119

    Origin of East Asians, Native Americans

    I had posited a theory before (misleading titled "ANE as an admixture"), based on the archaeology, that East Asians were an ancient mix of Early Siberians (as opposed to a later wave that would've brought Mal'ta) and an early coastal migration, and that Native Americans and Siberians were the purer forms of this ancient Siberian population. Now there seems to be some support of this from further sampling and analysis.

    Perhaps Ryukendo states it more correctly than me on Eurogenes:
    In particular, it looks like there is a Basal on the West Eurasian side, and there is another on the East Asian side, while the centre of the 'Fan' comprises WHG-ANE, which is also now extended to include ~60% of Han, Ust-Ishim and Onge as well, with the rest of Han, Ust Ishim and Onge coming from a Basal II, or East Asian Basal, or Australasian, or whatever you choose to call it.

    E.g. in tree no. 2, we already get a (WHG, (ANE, ENA)) fan-centre pattern with 60% contribution from Australasian/'Basal II' to ENA, while on the Middle Eastern Basal side, Israel Natufian is placed in the Basal position in Eurasians, accounting for that; then the Basal attraction between Israel_Natufian and Iran_Neolithic is addressed at tree 3 with edges between these. Tree 4 looks different superficially, with East Asians pushed out, but its really the same thing, because ANE continues to send the ~.5 edge into ENA while ENA is shifted out into the 'Australasian' position, addressing their dual origins in the same way. Israel Natufian gets pushed into West Eurasians, but now has a 40% typically 'Basal Eurasian' edge. Tree 5 resumes the topology of trees 3 and 2, with East Asians pushed back to the centre of the Fan beside ANE, while the Australasian half of ENA addressed by the edge, instead of the ANE half.

    So it seems like theres some kind of arc-shape. Where the trees disagree, is on whether the East Asian basal or the West Eurasian Basal splits off earlier: trees 2 and 5 support ENA's basal/'Basal II' being earlier, trees 3 and 4 West Eurasian Basal being earlier. While there is an attraction between Israel Natufian and Iran Neolithic, necessitating at least one Basal clade in West Eurasia, it seems like the Basal in West Eurasia is not a single clade as well, possibly multiple clades, from the way the two are often treated differently.
    From an archaeological point of view, the mixture could be so ancient that it goes back maybe 40K when the two archaeological complexes met in the Nothern China Plain and NE China boreal zone, that there has been a alot of common selection and the two original archetypes can be only visible as variants of a continous population (a smore Australian type of facial morphology in the south and a more Sibero-American/"Mongoloid" facial morphology in the north).

    Furthermore, could the ANE in Onge be actually a signature of a secondary migration from South Asia (bringing NRY haplogroup P into central Asia and Siberia as a secondary superstratum in Mal'ta?

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ren For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016),  Varun R (07-11-2016)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4
    Sex

    It is interesting that the Mal'ta people, whose remains lead to the discovery of ANE, where described as "mongoloid" in appearance. It would be somewhat ironic if the modern east asian phenotype ultimately came from a more west eurasian clade.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Rally For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    218

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    It is interesting that the Mal'ta people, whose remains lead to the discovery of ANE, where described as "mongoloid" in appearance. It would be somewhat ironic if the modern east asian phenotype ultimately came from a more west eurasian clade.
    ANE-WHG split from East Eurasians around same time. WHG went on to drift further away to form West Eurasians while ANE became intermediate with close cluster with East Eurasians.


  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Observer For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,761
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S336
    mtDNA (M)
    K1c1

    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    ANE-WHG split from East Eurasians around same time. WHG went on to drift further away to form West Eurasians while ANE became intermediate with close cluster with East Eurasians.
    Drift will distance everyone from each other. That picture means one or more of

    MA-1 admixture into Onge or vice versa
    Unknown admixture unrelated to MA-1 and Onge into WHG, SHG, EHG and AG2 or vice versa.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Shaikorth For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    658
    Sex
    Location
    Places
    Ethnicity
    Tamil

    Chola Empire India India Maratha Empire North Korea Kazakhstan Dravida Nadu
    can you provide the original link

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to tamilgangster For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,961
    Sex
    Omitted

    Implausible. If Ust-Ishim and Han shared 40% of some hyper-basal clade, Ust-Ishim would be far closer to Han then it is to anybody else.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Kale For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,761
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S336
    mtDNA (M)
    K1c1

    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Implausible. If Ust-Ishim and Han shared 40% of some hyper-basal clade, Ust-Ishim would be far closer to Han then it is to anybody else.
    It obviously isn't closer to Han than to West Eurasian HG's but that basal population shared with East Asians is still possible if U-I also shares a large amount of ancestry with Kostenki and WHG-types.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Shaikorth For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    242
    Sex
    Nationality
    American

    United States of America Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    ANE-WHG split from East Eurasians around same time. WHG went on to drift further away to form West Eurasians while ANE became intermediate with close cluster with East Eurasians.

    Could ANE's intermediate position be explained by two-way admixture; ANE into ENA and ENA into ANE?

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to fished For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  17. #9
    Banned
    Posts
    230
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Sino-Tibetan, Tungusic
    Y-DNA (P)
    O1-M119

    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Implausible. If Ust-Ishim and Han shared 40% of some hyper-basal clade, Ust-Ishim would be far closer to Han then it is to anybody else.
    That was also the finding of the Wong paper.

    ou've mentioned your fondness of the new Laziridis paper that shows East Asians having a large Mal'ta-EHG admixture. Don't you realize that that destroys the equidistance between East Asian and WHG and Mal'ta respectively, which is the original motivation for assuming Mal'ta is pure and Native Americans are admixed. He destroyed his own theory and yet still tries maintain it with piling more ghost populations in the model.

    My original objection to the ANE and Basal Eurasian model was that it doesn't make any sense in the conext of archaeology, uni-parental markers, physical anthropology, or population-specific genes such as EDAR. It felt too similar to and artificial like the old Cavalli-Sforza trees that didn't make any sense in world context and was fated to eventually be useless through the test of time. Now the new samples by Fu and Laziridis have made the old math invalid. BTW, if you read Fu's paper, it is very objectively stated but Laziridis et al. which forces a narrative, which is unbecoming of a scientist.

    (I do think NAs are admixed with Mal'ta but in far less amounts, in accordaance with their position in physical anthropology and epigenetic traits. I also think Mal'ta is admixed with an ASI element, as evidenced by NRY haplogroup P.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    It obviously isn't closer to Han than to West Eurasian HG's but that basal population shared with East Asians is still possible if U-I also shares a large amount of ancestry with Kostenki and WHG-types.
    But in the Wong paper it is closer to Han. And Wong especially makes the point of FU so I'm assuming Wong et al. higher quality data genome-wise.
    Last edited by ren; 07-12-2016 at 09:06 PM.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to ren For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,761
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S336
    mtDNA (M)
    K1c1

    Quote Originally Posted by ren View Post


    But in the Wong paper it is closer to Han. And Wong especially makes the point of FU so I'm assuming Wong et al. higher quality data genome-wise.
    Nah, they use high coverage genomes but none of their (X Loschbour Ust-Ishim San) D-stats are positive, even with Dai, Han etc.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Shaikorth For This Useful Post:

     Hando (07-13-2016)

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The origin of East Asians?
    By Diictodon in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 91
    Last Post: 03-19-2020, 02:57 AM
  2. R1b in Native Americans
    By Ricardo Canedo in forum R1b General
    Replies: 162
    Last Post: 01-23-2020, 04:09 AM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-06-2019, 12:58 PM
  4. Native Americans and Polynesians
    By BalkanKiwi in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-18-2018, 04:25 PM
  5. Native Americans
    By J Man in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-2014, 02:22 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •