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Thread: Ireland and DF13

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    Cool Ireland and DF13

    Now there's a topic for you!

    I was going to call it "Ireland and L21", but then it occurred to me that I cannot recall a single Irish L21 with a DF13- result. Perhaps someone else can think of one that I have overlooked, forgotten, or just don't know about yet.

    Anyway, I just visited Ireland in March with my family and had the time of my life; I loved it there and can only say good things about the place and the people. What I am wondering is how DF13 came to be so utterly dominant in Ireland, since it does not seem at all likely that it was the first y haplogroup in the island.

    Here are the Busby et al stats for Ireland as a reminder (in terms of L21, but I think it's reasonable to assume that just about all of that is DF13+).

    Ireland

    East Ireland (N = 149)
    L21 = 71.1%
    U106 = 6.7%
    U152 = 4%
    P312xL21, U152 = 7.4%

    North Ireland (N = 72)
    L21 = 79.2%
    U106 = 4.2%
    U152 = 1.4%
    P312xL21, U152 = 4.2%

    South Ireland (N = 89)
    L21 = 74.2%
    U106 = 3.4%
    U152 = 1.1%
    P312xL21, U152 = 7.9%

    West Ireland (N = 67)
    L21 = 73.1%
    U106 = 4.5%
    U152 = 1.5%
    P312xL21, U152 = 7.5%

    Those are some pretty amazing stats. Do you know of any other place on earth where a single y haplogroup as relatively young as L21 (and likely all DF13+) is so utterly dominant, exceeding frequencies of 70%? I don't.

    How did that happen?

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    Those frequencies are quite high. I think when people view various haplogroup frequency maps side by side they lose track of how the shading is generally relative to the high and low frequencies within each individual haplogroup map, and not constant across maps.

    Here is a Eupedia created frequency map of L21.


    L21 makes a good showing in France. I don't know of any frequency maps for DF13 but as Richard noted, L21 in Ireland is very much DF13+
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-16-2013 at 03:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    .... Anyway, I just visited Ireland in March with my family and had the time of my life; I loved it there and can only say good things about the place and the people. What I am wondering is how DF13 came to be so utterly dominant in Ireland, since it does not seem at all likely that it was the first y haplogroup in the island
    ....
    How did that happen?
    My guess is that DF13 may not have not been born in Ireland but some early DF13+ people migrated there, probably as a part of some ancient Bronze Age people like the Bell Beaker folks. Ireland is the northwest edge of Europe and the early DF13 men may have had a long period of advantage over people who didn't have the same kind of technologies and organization. Essentially, Ireland had some shelter from the continent during this period.

    Then over time, as continental Europe first, and then Great Britain, churned through wars, famines and what have you some of the DF13 back there (who may have actually been in the DF13 homeland) moved to westward to Ireland.

    Examples might be the Roman Empire expansion conquering Gaul (old France) may have caused people to move to the Isles and then as Rome conquered much of Britain more people might have moved westward across the Irish Sea. Likewise, the Anglo-Saxon invasions and settlements in old Romano-Britons to move westward. Finally, latter day movements on the fringes of England, such as the Normans or Scots, and their entourages may have pushed even more DF13 into Ireland. There were probably many types of migrations of people into the British Isles from the continent that eventually caused spillage of more DF13 over into Ireland as well as having brought more DF13 with them.

    The closest launch points from the continent include the NW France Atlantic Coast. This could have been a heavy DF13 dense area.....
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-16-2013 at 09:15 PM.

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    Seems as though there was a decline in population in Ireland at the end of the Neolithic there, which created greater opportunities for Bell Beaker incomers.

    Alan attended the Institute of Archaeologists of Ireland Conference 3 November 2012: The Archaeology of Disaster and Recovery and took some interesting notes on the presentations:

    Dr. Nicki Whitehouse (School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast) "The Boom and Bust of early farming communities; linking archaeological and environmental change in the Neolithic".

    Dr. T. Rowan McLaughlin, (School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast): "A slow recovery: population histories in Ireland from the Middle Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age."

    A paper has been submitted to the Journal of Archaeological Science. Whitehouse, N.J.; Schulting, R.J.; McClatchie, M.; Barratt, P.; McLaughlin, R.; Bogaard, A.; Colledge, S.; Marchant,R.; Gaffrey, J.; Bunting, M.J., Neolithic agriculture on the western fringes of Europe: a multi-disciplinary approach to the boom and bust of early farming in Ireland.

    Irish archaeologist Robert Chapple has a write-up on his blog of a lecture in February this year at Queen's University Belfast by Prof. Stephen Shennan: "Booms and Busts in Europe’s Earliest Farming Societies" . Ireland is one example. There is a population boom at around 5500 cal BP, followed by a trough around 5000 cal BP. A further rise in population may be noted around the period 5000-4000 cal BP.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-16-2013 at 08:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Seems as though there was a decline in population in Ireland at the end of the Neolithic there, which created greater opportunities for Bell Beaker incomers...
    For some reason, the Bell Beakers proliferated during the Neolithic farming decline. What did the early Bell Beakers have as an advantage that helped them while farming was in decline? Was it dairying? Disease resistance?

    I guess I'm assuming the theories about the decline of farming circa 5500 ybp was crop or climate related. Do they actually know?

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    From Alan's notes:

    Plantago decline c. 3500 BC indicates problem at end of rectangular house period. This coincides with decline in weather noted in rings on big oaks. TRB sites pollen also show decline 3300 BC. Radiocarbon date numbers from sites decline 3300 BC. German pine suggests wet conditions at same period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    From Alan's notes:
    Plantago decline c. 3500 BC indicates problem at end of rectangular house period. This coincides with decline in weather noted in rings on big oaks. TRB sites pollen also show decline 3300 BC. Radiocarbon date numbers from sites decline 3300 BC. German pine suggests wet conditions at same period.
    So there apparently was a crop problem probably causing food shortages. It looks like the Beakers didn't come in (at least into the British Isles) until a couple of hundred years later. Do we think they had advantages related to stockherding or dairying? or was their advantage that they gained high social positions and literally just took the food they needed from everybody else?

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    If arable farming had ceased, there would be no cereals to take from other people. If the population declined, there would be few people to exploit in any way. So incoming stock-breeders would have lots of lush grazing for their cattle (if conditions were still on the damp side) and few competitors.

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    That makes sense. I'll have to look it up, but I think it was Poseidonius (or Strabo quoting him) who remarked on the pastoral nature of the tribes in the interior of Britain. I suppose you could apply that to Ireland, as well. There was also a study not too long ago that found that lactase persistence increases as one moves north and west in the Isles, beginning from SE Britain.

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    I have now laid hands on the abstracts from that conference, which you can download from here. Here's the abstract for Nicki Whitehouse, Phil Barratt; Rowan McLaughlin; Rick Schulting; Meriel McClatchie; Amy Bogaard, Sue Colledge; Rob Marchant, Paula Reimer; Dave Brown: The Boom and Bust of early farming communities; linking archaeological and environmental change in the Neolithic:

    Archaeology has much to contribute to our understanding of the responses of communities to the consequences of climatic change. Here, we present results from the Heritage Council’s (Republic of Ireland) INSTAR-funded research project (2008–2010) ‘Cultivating Societies: assessing the evidence for agriculture in Neolithic Ireland’. The project has been concerned with examining the timing, extent and nature of Neolithic farming in Ireland, against its wider palaeoclimatic and environmental backdrop. Bayesian analyses of palaeoenvironmental and archaeological C14 data have allowed us to examine linkages between environment, climate, farming and settlement within a much stronger chronological framework – sometimes at generational time intervals – allowing us to explore the temporal and spatial character of this highly resolved dataset.

    There is a coincidence between climatically-driven hydrological changes during the mid-Holocene, 4100–3200 cal BC, inferred from Irish bog oaks (Barratt et al. submitted) and other records, and the onset and development of agriculture in Ireland. The early stages of agricultural development occurred during a period of ameliorated climatic conditions; however, major environmental changes in the middle of the 4th millennium BC apparently impacted the progression of agricultural and archaeological activities at this time. We see changes in landscape use and hints of a decline of agricultural activities. Coincident with these events are potential changes in the Neolithic archaeological record, with far fewer signals of human settlement for the Middle and Late Neolithic, a lull in radiocarbon dated settlement activity from around 3300 cal. BC to just after 3000 cal. BC, when the archaeological record is almost completely dominated by burials of the passage tomb tradition. This may be at least partially related to low archaeological visibility of settlement structures, but this may not be the whole explanation. These changes are not just evident across Ireland but also further a field, suggesting wider impacts. It thus seems possible that environmental changes in the 4th millennium may have had cultural consequences.

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