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Thread: L513 (L21>DF13>L513) & Z249 and Subclades L193, L706.2, L577, CTS3087, L69.5

  1. #1
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    L513 (L21>DF13>L513) & Z249 and Subclades L193, L706.2, L577, CTS3087, L69.5

    Richard beat me to it (with DF41) but we need to start a thread on L513 too. It is another of the old and large subclades of DF13.

    DF1 and S215 are additional names for L513. Z249 appears to be phylogenetically equivalent to L513/DF1 so Geno 2.0 testees who come up Z249+ should join this group as well. Here is the project Y haplotypes classic screen.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    The following chart shows the current STR signature based clusters (varieties) within L513.
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dency_Tree.jpg

    The name "11-13 Combo" is also associated with the project. Before L513 was discovered, hobbyist researchers noticed an off-modal STR pattern involving two fairly slow moving markers. Values of 11 or greater for DYS406s1 and 13 or greater for DYS617 indicate a high probability of for R1b predicted people of being L513+. These STRs are not foolproof as there are people who don't quite fit that are L513+ and there are some that are "11-13" people who are L513-.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-28-2013 at 01:06 PM. Reason: Expansion of subclade

  2. #2
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    Just looking at results this morning in Ireland Project I noticed a Fitzpatrick with 67 markers who had transfered in Geno 2.0 results. According to which he is L513+, he falls into the [513-D1] cluster which appears connected to wider region of Bréifne (Leitrim/Cavan).

    Fitzpatrick is an interesting surname in Ireland in that's it's a native Irish surname that has taken a "Norman" form, mainly for the purpose of retaining land. It's usually associated thus with the surname "Mac Giolla Phádraig" who were Kings of Osraighe (Osraí = reformed spelling) which consisted of Modern Kilkenny and part of Offaly, they were displaced by Norman Butlers who took over most of their territory (modern Kilkenny) leaving them with just "Upper Ossory".

    Mac GIOLLA PHÁDRAIG—IV—M'Gillephadrick, M'Gillapatrick, M'Kilpatrick, MacGilpatrick, MacIlpatrick, MacIlfatrick, MacElfatrick, MacIlfederick, MacElfedrick, Gilpatrick, Kilpatrick, Kirkpatrick, Fitzpatrick; 'son of Giolla Phádraig' (servant of St. Patrick). The principal family of this name are the MacGillapatricks, or Fitzpatricks, of Ossory, who took their name from Giolla Phádraig, son of Donnchadh, lord of Ossory, in the 10th century. In early times they ruled over the entire of Co. Kilkenny and part of the present Leix, but after the Anglo-Norman invasion they were greatly encroached upon by the Butlers and other English settlers in Kilkenny, and their patrimony was limited to the barony of Upper Ossory. Branches of the family settled in Clare, Cavan, Leitrim, and other parts of Ireland. In 1541, Brian Mac Giolla Patrick was created Baron of Upper Ossory. There appears to have been also a Scottish family of this name.
    Anyways given their Leinster origin I figured it's unlikely there's a connection Fitzpatrick in Cavan, seems there was another surname there that was later assimilated into more common Fitzpatrick angliscation.

    Ó MAOLPHÁDRAIG—I—O Mulfadricke, O Mulpatrick, (?) Fitzpatrick; 'descendant of Maolphádraig' (servant of St. Patrick); once a common surname, especially in Cavan and Cork. In the year 1602, Conor O Molpatrick, 'chief of his name,' was included in a list of pardons for Co. Cavan. Though the name has disappeared, the family was too numerous to have died out, and the probability is that, like the Mac Gillapatricks of Ossory, they have anglicised it to Fitzpatrick.
    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Just looking at results this morning in Ireland Project I noticed a Fitzpatrick with 67 markers who had transfered in Geno 2.0 results. According to which he is L513+, he falls into the [513-D1] cluster which appears connected to wider region of Bréifne (Leitrim/Cavan)...
    Paul, thanks for the heads up. Please ask this fellow to join the R1b-L513 / 1113Combo project.

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    Pulling the this post from the GGC forum, so what is the general history of L193 with this age and its range for the Isles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww
    Quote Originally Posted by MJost
    >111 STR haplotypes for Variety 513-A1-193

    Not much different with 21 more suspect Hts as a guide to compare to SNP Tested.

    CI @ 99.73 and Bird's q STRs
    YrsPerGen Count Intraclade Founder's Modal
    Modal Gen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP CI SD GenModal CI +OR-YBP

    30 N=77 513-A1-193's using 111marker HTs from ExtHts worksheet
    32.0 13.4 959.6 403.3 1,362.8 26.02 780.6
    MJost
    Thank you, Mark. Great work! With your incorporation of Stephen Bird's S-SSM (single step model) low q value STR selection that takes the air out of TMRCA complaints.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Pulling the this post from the GGC forum, so what is the general history of L193 with this age and its range for the Isles?
    L193 is a good sized subclade that seems most dense along the Scottish and English border regions. In fact the large surname groups have traditions out of the old Border Reivers era. They consider themselves Anglo-Scottish.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers

    In particular, we have a very large group of Elliott's. Here is the Elliott Border Reivers web site. The Glendenning/Clendenon and Little/Lytle family groups are also large and of this tradition. The Border Reivers period was (late 13th century to the beginning of the 17th century.)
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../~gallgaedhil/
    Sounds like the Wild, Wild West.
    http://www.thereivertrail.com/
    The tradition is there are links with the Douglass and Armstrong families although that is not necessarily genetic.

    You can see these haplotypes under subgroup "A1" at the L513 project. I'm pretty sure all of "A1" is L193+.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    As you would expect, there tends to be a correlation of Scotland the Ulster areas of Ireland so you'll see a lot of L193 people there too.

    Other common surnames include Kennedy, McClain/MacLean, Vance/Vans, Sinclair/St.Clair. Of course, the McClain group has more affinity with the Scottish Highlands.

    I almost hate to bring this up because it usually brings up controversy. A number of the Vance and Sinclair people have the tradition they descend from Normans. Vance would be Vaux.

    Some of these people think the common thread is a connection, although not necessarily genetic, with a powerful figure named Douglass.

    Even though there are a lot of L193 people out there, it is a fairly young group. I see your best estimate is for a 960 ybp age. The Normans and Flemish allies were hitting this area back then but whoever the L193 people were, they were prolific from somewhere around tenth century on and successfully navigated the Border Reivers period.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-17-2013 at 04:08 PM.

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    L513 subgroup J includes the following people.

    f8633 Thomas
    f161394 Martin
    fN56253 Gilroy
    fN114296 Gilroy
    f7436 Goff

    fN56253 Gilroy is the only person we can find so far with L9+ L10+

    The new news is that fN114296 Gilroy has been found to be Z1867+.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reynolds
    > Geno 2.0 results for N114296 (Gilroy) have been added to the summary table at:
    http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf

    Gilroy is Z1867+; since Z1867 was previously found in Hg J, this occurrence is
    properly Z1867.2+. This mutation has not been previously seen in Hg R.

    Gilroy was also expected to be L9+ L10+, based on prior testing done by his son. However, Geno 2.0 reports him as L9- L10-. On the basis of that, I have moved L9 and L10 to the list of Geno 2.0 SNPs which I have blacklisted. Blacklisted SNPs are listed on the summary table entry page:
    http://daver.info/geno/results/
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R.../message/15842

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    Here is an update on the STR based clusters within R1b-L513 and their various SNP statuses.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dency_Tree.jpg

    L577 seems to be nicely dividing the "core" MacKenzie family of 513-E. I think we are throwing in the towel on L9 and L10 with the latest news from David Reynolds. We've pretty throughly tested for L908 and L909 and that seems to be private in the L513* unassigned paragroup with a fellow named Robertson.

    CTS6621, CTS6942, CTS11744 look interesting as they are newly discovered in a Watkins but he has only 12 STRs so I don't know where to place him. He might be in my group, 513-B2, since he has a high 19/394 value and we have another Watkins already in B2.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-24-2013 at 04:58 PM.

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    CTS3087 looks promising for L513 people. particularly variety 513-D2. These three CTS3087+ guys are all L513+ (/DF1+,Z249+). Two of them are in variety 513-D2 and one, McNabb, has an unknown STR haplotype.

    f131998 Fritts and fN112468 James Diver have a GD=13 at 67 so this is easily a public SNP.

    fN114377 McNabb, b. Unknown
    f131998 Hans Fritts, b.1708, Germany
    fN112468 James Diver, b.1824, Kilmacrenan, Co. Donegal, Ulster, Ireland

    Here is David's chart on L513. There CTS3087- people inside of L513 so this is only applicable to L513 people.
    http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf

    Below are the L513+ guys that are known CTS3087-.

    f228009 Kane R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513* L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L706.2- L69- L144- L577- L908- L909- L1333- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- L192.1- 513- uas
    f268319 Knox R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-A1-193-M
    fN114028 McDonald R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-A1-193-M
    f159822 Meek R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L193.1+ L193+ Z290+ Z249+ L144- L195- L526- L564- L580- L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- L130- L192.1- 513-A1-193-N
    f228829 Bruen/Bruin R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5* L69.5+ Z249+ P66- L144- L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-A2
    f246556 McDonald R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5* L69.5+ Z290+ Z249+ P66- CTS3087- 513-A2-M
    f274410 McDonald R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ L69+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-A2-M
    fN84867 Watkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS6621+ CTS6942+ CTS11744+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-B2-705
    f197401 Carey R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L706.2- L144- L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-D1
    fH1601 Fitzpatrick R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-D1
    f215816 Williams R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L144- L577- L908- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-E
    fN1946 Gamble R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-G
    fN28178 Hayes(Scotland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-H
    fN114296 Gilroy R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ Z1867+ CTS3087- 513-J
    f56277 Winter R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L144- Z1867- L577- CTS3087- L9- L10- 513-W

    I see L193.1+ guys on the negative list so L706.2 and P66 must test for ISOGG recognition.

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    My little piece of the L513+ clade is L706.2+ L705.2+. We seem to be about a 1000 years old and many of us have connections to Wales or Welsh surnames. The anamolies in our group have been a guy from La Roche, France and from Ostergotland, Sweden.

    However, I was able to look at more Owen surname people and found five or six new excellent suspects that have our group's 19=15 YCAII=18,23 444=13 to go with the normal L513 406s1>=11 617>=13.

    The additional people that seem to have the Wales connection is really leading me that direction. I wish testing was greater in France so we could have a better look to see if parts of France might have more of us other than just the one, but one is just one.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-05-2013 at 08:45 PM.

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    We've had another Scandinavian L513+ come in. He doesn't fit in with anybody STR-wise so he is in our L513 unassigned group.

    f272519 Ersson(Västernorrland) L513+ Z290+ Z249+ 513- uas

    Here is the other one who fits in with me.

    fN29541 Sunesson(Tibbhult) L705.2+ L1333- 513-B2-705

    Both are a bit east into Sweden so they are on the eastern side of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

    Since we are on Germanic language areas here are the L513+ people from Germany and the Netherlands

    fN3933 Ammerlaan L513+ 513- uas

    f113882 Müller L513+ 513- uas

    f131998 Fritts + Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- 513-D2
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-12-2013 at 08:39 PM.

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