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Thread: L513 (L21>DF13>L513) & Z249 and Subclades L193, L706.2, L577, CTS3087, L69.5

  1. #21
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    Scott, we are just glad to have you. Your geographical origins are not the norm for L513, but I'm not sure what the norm should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by drg250000 View Post
    The chart I was referring to from David Reynolds is at: http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534765273249/
    That chart is not David's site and may be not his current version. I try to keep a current chart for L21 but I don't differentiate the SNPs like David is doing between which can be ordered via FTDNA or not. I'll look into that but it's enough of an eye chart already.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L21-Tree
    In the above chart, the goldish column is L513. Of course, it is like a family tree and therefore L513 people wouldn't care about SNPs found only in the other (brother) columns. The SNPs that are in rectangles have known positions.

    The chart below is a more detailed breakdown of L513. Each of the clouds represents an STR based subgrouping that I call varieties or clusters. The STR patterns that dictate the subgroupings are called STR signatures. These STR signature based varieties are not iron-clad. They should be considered speculative because STRs can mutate up and down multiple times causing coincidental convergence. Ideally we'll eventually find an SNP or two for each cloud to turn them into SNP based and officially recognized subclades. This is not outside of the realm of possibilities as an SNP occurs on the Y chromosome more than once, on average for every two father-son transmissions.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L513-Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by drg250000 View Post
    I will submit my Geno 2.0 file to Mr. Reynolds as soon as possible.
    Thank you, that's probably the best first step. David can confirm what you are negative for and may discover an SNP pertinent for L513.

    Quote Originally Posted by drg250000 View Post
    Geno 2.0 has my primary Y-chromosome deep ancestry as "German" (48%). Do you know if that is consistent with other R1b-L513s who have tested with Geno 2.0? t
    Does it say your Y chromosome is that or your autosomal chromesome mix? Generally, I'm not sure we can classify Y chromosomes discretely by ethnicities since they are passed down only from father to son. For instance your Y chromosome only comes from one of your four grand-parents, one of your 16 great-grand parents, etc. If your father's father's father was German but all other 15 great-grandparents were Italian what does that make your Y chromosome? We could say German but some of these SNPs, like L21, were probably around before a German language was ever spoken. I prefer to look at it as our paternal lineage (Y chromosome) may have been different things at different points in time.

    I haven't seen those reports for L513 Geno 2 testers. We could probably ask that on the L513 yahoo group and see who responds. My guess is there would be more British Isles types than anything. L513, like L21 is heavily British Isles centric, but there are a couple of factors to consider. First, FTDNA's customers are primarily American and the U.S. has substantially strong proportion of European immigration from the Isles. Second, the modern distribution pattern of L513 may not represent the ancient pattern and the diversity of haplotypes is more important than the frequency for determining origins.

    Your autosomal mix is good evidence that your paternal lineage is where your genealogy says it should be from. Another point of evidence is how you fit into those L513 clusters/varieties. You don't. Almost all of those are British Isles focused varieties. If you fit into one of those that was young that might indicate a late movement for your lineage from the British Isles to Scandinavia or even some kind of NPE. However, you don't fit.

    From my personal perspective, I'm curious about your L706.2 status. You don't fit into group B2 with me but if you ended up being L706.2+ that would show you are a very early branch off from the other L706.2 people. That may be sound like gobbledygook but in cultural/geographical terms several of the families in B2 have traditions as being Cambro-Normans (think Welsh-Normans). I think we are of the Welsh or Old Briton type on the paternal lineage side but I really don't know. We do have Frenchman, Bergeron, in B2 and we also have a Swede from Ostergotland, Hakkeson (MDKA - the descendant name is actually Wallentinus). The history is the Normans come from French Normandy as a mixture of Norsemen, Bretons, Flemish, Romano-Gauls, etc. It seems remote but there is Norse possibility. One explanation is one that Anthony Barrett has initiated on the yahoo group. He thinks L513 comes from the Veneti tribe in the French Brittany area. They were excellent seafarers and caused problems for the Romans until the Romans came up with a winning strategy for battling them at sea. The Veneti then dispersed with the bulk going to the western side of Great Britain. Sounds as reasonable as anything I've heard. L513 appears to be 2500 years old so the timing could fit.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 06-25-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  2. #22
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    Hi Mike,

    Thank you! I am really enjoying what you have to teach me.

    I believe you are right, the "German" reference group is autosomal DNA.

    Also, I have emailed my Geno 2.0 results to David Reynolds.

    I feel fortunate to have such dedicated L513 brothers.

    Again, thank you!

  3. #23
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    I've updated R1b-L513_Haplotypes spreadsheet and have .pdf file for it too. I regularly post this spreadsheet in the Links section of this Yahoo Group.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/links

    I now have a .pdf file of the main spreadsheet. It should be viewable with a free .pdf file viewing program. It is the spreadsheet of all the L513 confirmed and suspected people I can find whether they are in the project or not. I put it in the pdf format for people who don't want to use a spreadsheet like MS Excel.

    You can get the pdf viewer from Adobe Acrobat for free at their web site: http://get.adobe.com/reader/
    As far as I know, it is a very safe program to use. I've never had any problems with it and there must be millions using it. I don't get any emails from Adobe.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I think CTS3087 should make ISOGG soon. We have an L706.2 guy testing for it. We know L193+ is negative for it. We need to get P66 tested.

    So far everyone is in L513+ variety 513-D2.

    fN83227 Butler R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ 513-D2
    f4479 Devine R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513* L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ L193- L706.2- L69- L144- L195- L564- L580- L577- L908- L909- L1333- L9- L10- L130- 513-D2
    fN112468 Diver R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- L577- L9- L10- 513-D2
    f131998 Fritts R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- 513-D2
    fN114377 McNabb R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ 513-D2

    The GD between Fritts and Diver at 67 is 13 so the diversity requirement is met.
    We've not got both an L706.2+ guy, Gardiner, and a P66+ guy, J.McKown, with CTS3087 on order. We already know that L193+ is CTS3087-. As soon as we get these results in we should be able to get CTS3087 on the ISOGG official tree!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I've updated R1b-L513_Haplotypes spreadsheet and have .pdf file for it too. I regularly post this spreadsheet in the Links section of this Yahoo Group.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/links

    I now have a .pdf file of the main spreadsheet. It should be viewable with a free .pdf file viewing program. It is the spreadsheet of all the L513 confirmed and suspected people I can find whether they are in the project or not. I put it in the pdf format for people who don't want to use a spreadsheet like MS Excel.

    You can get the pdf viewer from Adobe Acrobat for free at their web site: http://get.adobe.com/reader/
    As far as I know, it is a very safe program to use. I've never had any problems with it and there must be millions using it. I don't get any emails from Adobe.
    I don't know what I was thinking, but I forgot to post the link to the pdf file/print of the Allhts tab of the spreadsheet.
    http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L513-Haplotypes-pdf

  6. #26
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    This is a bit of a surprise and I'd like to verify it and then look for more detail on other potential SNPs in these two samples.

    The recent report, "Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny" by Francalacci, et. al. has a couple of L21+ people in it.
    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565.abstract

    Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has looked at the details and says that two individuals are L513+.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post413296

    He attributed them to the Vandals. Maciamo Hay wrote, [INDENT]"The Vandals were the first to reach the Italian peninsula. They had migrated to Iberia, then crossed over the North Africa in 429, where they founded a kingdom that also comprised Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. Sardinia is the best place to look for traces of their DNA because on the one hand it is the best studied region of Italy, and on the other hand no other Germanic peoples settled there (apart from a very brief Gothic reign), which means that the presence of Germanic lineages on the island would incontestably be of Vandalic origin. Based on the detailed Y-chromosomal study of 1200 Sardinians by Francalacci et al. (2013), the Vandals appeared to have carried 35% of R1a, 29% of I2a2a, 24% of R1b, 6% of I2a1b and a mere 6% of I1. The subclades identified were I1a3a2 (L1237+), I2a2a (L699+ and CTS616+), I2a1b (M423+), R1a-Z282 (incl. some Z280+), R1a-M458 (L1029+), R1b-U106 (Z381+), R1b-L21 (DF13>L513+), R1b-DF27 (Z196>Z209+). The probable the reason for the elevated (Proto-)Slavic R1a and the presence of the Eastern European I2-M423 is that the Vandals stayed in Poland before migrating to the Roman Empire. Over a third of Vandalic male lineages were therefore of Proto-Slavic origin."[INDENT/I] http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ital...re_middle_ages

    I've downloaded the supplementary tables but I'm not sure how to read them. I'd like to locate the two L513+ individuals and see if there are any novel SNPs or if they might have L193, P66, L69, L705.2, L706.2, L577, CTS3087 or CTS1867.

  7. #27
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    Mike,

    There's a new L706.2+ in the Ireland project today. Details are:
    289221 -- O'Brien -- L706.2+ (no other SNP's tested)

    As he's a GD of 6 from yourself you are probably not surprised by the result!

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Mike,
    There's a new L706.2+ in the Ireland project today. Details are:
    289221 -- O'Brien -- L706.2+ (no other SNP's tested)
    Thanks, Paul. I hadn't noticed his result. I tried to get him to test for L705.2 first, because I think he is L705.2+ as well but he decided to take the systematic route.

    That puts us up to 18 L706.2+. All but one appear to be L705.2+ as well.

    f178598 Adams L705.2+ L69- England, West Midlands, Shropshire
    f36619 Banks L705.2+ England
    f85844 Bergeron L705.2+ France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
    f8132 Barrett L705.2+ zzzUnkOrigin
    f193851 Barrett L705.2+ L144- zzzUnkOrigin
    f202969 Edwards L705.2+ L144- zzzUnkOrigin
    f211625 Jones L705.2+ Wales
    f35601 Lewis L705.2+ Wales, South, Glamorganshire
    f24438 Munnerlyn L705.2+ UK
    f82655 Morris L705.2+ Wales, South, Monmouthshire, Tintern Parva, Piercefield
    f289221 O'Brien L706.2+ Ireland
    f74823 Owen L705.2+ Wales
    f60411 Phillips(Eng) L705.2+ England
    f142841 Pitts L705.2+ zzzUnkOrigin
    fN29541 Sunesson(Tibbhult) L705.2+ L1333- Sweden, Kalmar lšn, Tibbhult
    fN54638 Walsh L705.2+ L144- L195- L908- L909- L130- L192.1- L69- 3c1g Ireland, Leinster, Co. Kilkenny (possibly South Wales before that)
    f35532 zzzUnk(Brown) L705.2+ zzzUnkOrigin


    The maximum GD to the modal for the above group is 9 at 67 STRs. The average is 5.

    At 111 STRs, the average GD to the modal is only 9 and the maximum is 16.

    We are not that distantly related so I hold hope that we'll figure something out some day. There is Welsh bent to this group for sure.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post

    I've downloaded the supplementary tables but I'm not sure how to read them. I'd like to locate the two L513+ individuals and see if there are any novel SNPs or if they might have L193, P66, L69, L705.2, L706.2, L577, CTS3087 or CTS1867.
    Mike, in the supplementary material, there are two L21+ samples (1016 &1017). None of the SNPs below L513 that you mentioned above are in the supplied data, so they are either negative for all of them, or in some cases, fell outside the testing mask they used to sequence. The two samples share the following SNPs:

    15654428 C>G (L21)
    7340450 C>T (L513)
    19068703 C>T
    6795128 G>A
    17660414 A>G
    14382701 C>T
    15224008 T>C

    The five additional SNPs these two samples share are not found in any of the databases I've checked. Dare we call it "The Sardinian Cluster"???
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 08-15-2013 at 12:48 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Mike, in the supplementary material, there are two L21+ samples (1016 &1017). None of the SNPs below L513 that you mentioned above are in the supplied data, so they are either negative for all of them, or in some cases, fell outside the testing mask they used to sequence. The two samples share the following SNPs:

    15654428 C>G (L21)
    7340450 C>T (L513)
    19068703 C>T
    6795128 G>A
    17660414 A>G
    14382701 C>T
    15224008 T>C

    The five additional SNPs these two samples share are not found in any of the databases I've checked. Dare we call it "The Sardinian Cluster"???
    Thanks, Richard.

    We have a guy taking the Fullgenomes.com test. I suppose that is our only option for looking for these novel SNPs.

    I don't know what they are. I'm sure some will think they are Irish mercenaries and others Normans. I don't know how or why Welsh would be there unless this is some kind of Roman slave trade thing. We do have a couple of guys from Sweden and Germany, and one from Finland, which prompted Maciamo Hay to say these L513 Sardinians are Vandals.

    I really don't have a clue, just speculations in the purest sense of the word.

    I suppose we should keep in mind the higher percentages of L21 in Bologna.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 08-15-2013 at 01:10 PM.

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