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Thread: Distribution map of Y-DNA R-Z36 in Italy

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frithnanth View Post
    What about Germany. Wasn't it unified too?

    Have you done the autosomal test? It would reveal a possible germanic ancestry that some italians are so "horny" about, that I sincerely don't understand.
    There is nothing to be "horny" about in this matter, its just a question of specific ethnic culture of your family and consciousness of your roots. About this you can be proud.

    The phisical difference is also immediately noticeable. Don't you know that Italian POWs after WWII were separated by their aspect and geographical origins ? and this is still valid even now in U.K. It seems ...as odd as it seems and not politically correct .
    Last edited by Francesco62; 12-28-2016 at 10:47 PM.

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  3. #42
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    Yeah, I got your point about the ethnic diversity of Italy. On the other hand, I don't know why to inflate the germanic ancestry, even though the romans, etruscans, ligurians and italic tribes contribuited more to the modern italian genepool. There are lots of north italians who think they are austrians.

    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

    The same thing could also be applied to some iberians who think they are Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and forget about the moors.

    Anyway, thank you for the explanation.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frithnanth View Post
    Yeah, I got your point about the ethnic diversity of Italy. On the other hand, I don't know why to inflate the germanic ancestry, even though the romans, etruscans, ligurians and italic tribes contribuited more to the modern italian genepool. There are lots of north italians who think they are austrians.

    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

    The same thing could also be applied to some iberians who think they are Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and forget about the moors.

    Anyway, thank you for the explanation.



    It's clear that most Italian people nowadays don't even known from where they come from and they just feel to be naturally Italians.
    Still is existing -mainly in countryside- a sort of feeling of a deep difference between North and South. They used to speak a different language and even eat or dress dress in a full different way.

    This was true at my grandfather times but now younger generations have mostly lost the sense of traditions and have been growing in a more uniformed modern way , this thanks also to a national TV and more years spent in public schools.
    Useless to say that the school programs underline the low impact of Germani or Celtic migrations and push for a different national story.

    By the way between pre Indo European Ligurians populations and indo European Celtics there was almost no difference as they naturally merged centuries before Current Era.

    The very same romans were also indo-europeans and probably were coming from the same area but in different waves and for a different route .
    The fact that they absorbed part of thr Etruscan culture didn't avoid them to be later ethnically cleansed as it is shown in the very same haplogroups map of Tuscany DNA.

    It's not easy indeed and I bet that I am far to be the only northern Italian that stepped in Dna testing to check if my subconscious has some real grounds.

    About the people who feel to be Austrian in the north, if you are referring to Alto Adige or Sud Tyrol as they call themselves ...they speak only German , eat and think as Austrians they are really Italians only by passport in most cases and they also got a special regional status with a very large autonomy.
    Their parents were in the opposite side in WWI and often volunteered in German army in WWII against Italians when the Italian government and the king betrayed their allies.
    But how to blame them , it was the call of their blood, no matter or impact could have their passport against this.

    About the impact of moors in Spain , msnybof my compatriots in South Italy , even if at a lesser extent , clearly show this in the origin of their Greek, Phoenician, Turk and northern Africans haplogroups.
    Last edited by Francesco62; 12-29-2016 at 10:36 PM.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco62 View Post
    It's clear that most Italian people nowadays don't even known from where they come from and they just feel to be naturally Italians.
    Still is existing -mainly in countryside- a sort of feeling of a deep difference between North and South. They used to speak a different language and even eat or dress dress in a full different way.

    This was true at my grandfather times but now younger generations have mostly lost the sense of traditions and have been growing in a more uniformed modern way , this thanks also to a national TV and more years spent in public schools.
    Useless to say that the school programs underline the low impact of Germani or Celtic migrations and push for a different national story.

    By the way between pre Indo European Ligurians populations and indo European Celtics there was almost no difference as they naturally merged centuries before Current Era.

    The very same romans were also indo-europeans and probably were coming from the same area but in different waves and for a different route .
    The fact that they absorbed part of thr Etruscan culture didn't avoid them to be later ethnically cleansed as it is shown in the very same haplogroups map of Tuscany DNA.

    It's not easy indeed and I bet that I am far to be the only northern Italian that stepped in Dna testing to check if my subconscious has some real grounds.

    About the people who feel to be Austrian in the north, if you are referring to Alto Adige or Sud Tyrol as they call themselves ...they speak only German , eat and think as Austrians they are really Italians only by passport in most cases and they also got a special regional status with a very large autonomy.
    Their parents were in the opposite side in WWI and often volunteered in German army in WWII against Italians when the Italian government and the king betrayed their allies.
    But how to blame them , it was the call of their blood, no matter or impact could have their passport against this.

    About the impact of moors in Spain , msnybof my compatriots in South Italy , even if at a lesser extent , clearly show this in the origin of their Greek, Phoenician, Turk and northern Africans haplogroups.
    I have to say that lately I'm even more conviced that Z36 could also have come with germanic tribes... That shade in Campania takes the territory surrounding Benevento, seat of a Longobard Duchy. Also the territory of Lucca was well inhabited by Longobards and is still a region with a high percentage of R1b, not sure if the majority is Z36... I think it would be.

    By the way... Francesco62, are you the founder of the blog Bighipert about the history of Toscana?

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passa View Post
    Yes, like, now.
    Every time I visit the site, I leave with more questions than answers. FTDNA lists me as L2, Italo-Celtic. My ancestors are from Benevento. I have a theory how we came to southern Italy, the Punic Wars and the Longobards. Reading the history of these events, I found the Celts in Northern Italy joined with Hannibal and the Longobards. I guess a few stayed in the sunny south.
    I test negative for Z36 . The following are my positives with very few available tests
    L2+,
    L23+,
    L278+,
    L389+,
    L51+,
    M269+,
    M343+,
    P297+,
    P310+,
    P311+,
    P312+,
    U152+,
    This is what FTDNA shows as available
    CTS5153
    F3916
    CTS667
    CTS1166
    F4205
    PF4367
    F1643

  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasquale View Post
    Every time I visit the site, I leave with more questions than answers. FTDNA lists me as L2, Italo-Celtic. My ancestors are from Benevento. I have a theory how we came to southern Italy, the Punic Wars and the Longobards. Reading the history of these events, I found the Celts in Northern Italy joined with Hannibal and the Longobards. I guess a few stayed in the sunny south.
    I test negative for Z36 . The following are my positives with very few available tests
    L2+,
    L23+,
    L278+,
    L389+,
    L51+,
    M269+,
    M343+,
    P297+,
    P310+,
    P311+,
    P312+,
    U152+,
    This is what FTDNA shows as available
    CTS5153
    F3916
    CTS667
    CTS1166
    F4205
    PF4367
    F1643
    There where no Longobards in Italy when Hannibal was around, they where gallic-celts ...............and even ostrogoths ( centuries after hannibal ) settled there ( benevento )before the longobards

    Founded as Maleventum, one of the major settlements of the Samnites, Benevento remained under Roman control as Beneventum from about 274 BC.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco62 View Post
    It's clear that most Italian people nowadays don't even known from where they come from and they just feel to be naturally Italians.
    Still is existing -mainly in countryside- a sort of feeling of a deep difference between North and South. They used to speak a different language and even eat or dress dress in a full different way.
    About the impact of moors in Spain , msnybof my compatriots in South Italy , even if at a lesser extent , clearly show this in the origin of their Greek, Phoenician, Turk and northern Africans haplogroups.
    Don't imagine that the Italian admixture was only fixed by the late Antiquity invaders (Greeks, Phoenicians...) , it is far more ancestral:
    Italian_Abruzzo:average:
    Tepecik-Ciftlik_Neolithic:average 41.8
    LBK_EN:average 35.1
    Yamnaya 23.1
    Loschbour:Loschbour 0.0
    Eurogenes G25: 47% DEU_Halberstadt_LBA+36% ITL_Proto-Villanovan+17% GRC_Mycenaean

  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    The Z36 and L2 maps on this forum do not agree with Bertoncini's Apuani study as Bertoncini suggests that L2 is relatively rare in NW Tuscany.

    Boattini's study on the other hand seems to show a heavy L2 presence in the La Spezia/Massa provinces, old ancient "Apuani" country, which straddles the Tuscany/Liguria border.

    Can anybody explain this dichotomy?
    Z36 may have arrived with a first migratory wave of the proto-Celtic population from the Alps (La Tene in Switzerland) into north Italy, giving rise to Scamozzina culture (14th and 13th century BC) and the Canegrate culture (13th century BC), and then to the subsequent Golasecca culture (in this sense, a good read is Raffaele C. De Marinis, La civiltà di Golasecca: i più antichi Celti d'Italia). Within the Golasecca culture there is the melting of Celts with ancient Ligurians, and Golasecca acting as intermediary in the trade between Hallstatt and the Etruscans, expands territorially to southern Liguria and northern Tuscany. Probably a last wave of Z36 came with Gallic invaders who settled the Po Valley in the 4th century BC.

    L2 may have arrived with earlier Bell Beaker and later Hallstatt migrations.

    L2 map in Italy

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-R-L2-in-Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I have to say that lately I'm even more conviced that Z36 could also have come with germanic tribes... That shade in Campania takes the territory surrounding Benevento, seat of a Longobard Duchy. Also the territory of Lucca was well inhabited by Longobards and is still a region with a high percentage of R1b, not sure if the majority is Z36... I think it would be.
    The whole Tuscany was inhabited by Longobards, while the distribution of Z36 in Tuscany seems more compatible with a Golaseccan-Celtic expansion.

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  14. #49
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    I should have made my remarks clearer. Hannibal was in Italy 700 years before the Longobards invaded Italy. The Celts were not friends with the Romans. I have read the Celts (Gauls) guided Hannibal and his elephants over the Alps. Celts joined with Hannibal and Benevento is part of Hannibal's Italian incursions. The Celts probably joined with the Longobards. Both armies were in the Benevento and Salerno areas at different times. Reading an earlier post to this site, "This one overlap better with Celt and Lepontic area, the presence in inner Campania has to do with the deportation of Celto-Ligures in the Roman times, around Beneventum." posted by Morges
    Benevento was under the control of the Longobards from around 600 to 1050.

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