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Thread: DF13* (L21>DF13*)

  1. #1
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    DF13* (L21>DF13*)

    Rich doesn't want to join this forum (yet) so I'm posting his message about DF13

    *The Current State of L21 (07 August 2012): The discovery of the SNP DF13 has split L21 into a very large DF13+ group and a thus far much smaller DF13- group. All of the known L21 subclades except DF63 are DF13+, meaning they are downstream of DF13, as well as L21.

    If you are L21+ and have not yet tested positive for one of the L21 subclades, you should test for DF13.


    If you get a DF13+ result, then you can focus on testing for the known DF13+ subclades: DF23, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41. DF49 is thought to be between DF13 and DF23, but that has not been confirmed yet. If you get a positive result for one of those subclades, then you can focus on the branches of those subclades. If you have already tested positive for one of the DF13 subclades, you do not need to test for DF13.

    If you get a DF13- result, you should test for DF63.
    Thus far, it is the only known subclade of L21 that is DF13-.

    It is possible to be both DF13- and DF63-, however. We have a few men in that category already.

    I realize much if not all of this has been discussed here before, but I wanted to lay it all out in one place in summary form, so that L21+ men or their sponsors who are not yet aware of it can see it.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to vineviz For This Useful Post:

     MikeWhalen (08-08-2012)

  3. #2
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    L21 > DF13* Discussion

    I have pulled the DF13 XSubclades & XPredicted Subclades a short time ago and created a new Fluxus. I have layed out the best set of branches for what I call the Right main Branch which is the Scots 1030-A-Sc Cluster some pre branches. Download and then Rotate the PDF image 90 degress for a better view or just print it out. Screen zoom allows better viewing. I have been working on the Left side view of the remaining DF13 xSubs.

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y...Zoc051MXc/edit


    Note there are two other section branches shown on page three and four which have the following varieties shown.

    From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

    From Node m331: 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.

    The last PDF page show the entire main right branch as plotted.

    I uses the 30 year generation when I calculated the years between mutations from MarkoH's newest rates.

    CumRates% RatePerEvent #ofTransmissionsPerMutationAtMutation Rate PerSTRMutation(BE) PerMutatationAt25yrGen PerMutatationAt30yrGen
    0.172844 0.002580 388 5.8 145 174

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  4. #3
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    DF13* (xSubclades) Updates

    Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?

    I made a list back around the first part on August of the DF13* xsubclades xPredicted subclades and ran a fluxus on those 618 haplotypes rooted with L21. I created three groups as they filled the screen, Left Right and bottom groups. The right group is mainly the very large Scots variety 1030-A-Sc.

    This Right page has several varieties shown: From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

    From Node m331: varieties 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.




    The left PDF contains most of the 1511's. The bottom section was split into A, B and C pdf's.

    'BottA' page has these varities 1424, 1014,1810, 1609, 1130-A-2, 2510, 9910, 2410, 1066A, 1310, 1523, 1221, 2113, 643, 14611

    'BottB' contains these varities: 1415, 111311, 1528, 111314, 1111E, 45410, 1114, 1123, 49-1411, 1199, 25911, 9926, 1014-A, 49-1226, 2517, 1111

    'BottC' has 9919(mostly), 1523, 1221, 13-526, 91612, 921, 1114, 1017, 1613, 9915, 1423

    They are posted on Yahoo but here is a folder with the five PDFs in my Google documents storage

    https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0By...JsWUMxVzA/edit


    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to MJost For This Useful Post:

     David (09-03-2012)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?

    I made a list back around the first part on August of the DF13* xsubclades xPredicted subclades and ran a fluxus on those 618 haplotypes rooted with L21. I created three groups as they filled the screen, Left Right and bottom groups. The right group is mainly the very large Scots variety 1030-A-Sc.

    This Right page has several varieties shown: From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

    From Node m331: varieties 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.




    The left PDF contains most of the 1511's. The bottom section was split into A, B and C pdf's.

    'BottA' page has these varities 1424, 1014,1810, 1609, 1130-A-2, 2510, 9910, 2410, 1066A, 1310, 1523, 1221, 2113, 643, 14611

    'BottB' contains these varities: 1415, 111311, 1528, 111314, 1111E, 45410, 1114, 1123, 49-1411, 1199, 25911, 9926, 1014-A, 49-1226, 2517, 1111

    'BottC' has 9919(mostly), 1523, 1221, 13-526, 91612, 921, 1114, 1017, 1613, 9915, 1423

    They are posted on Yahoo but here is a folder with the five PDFs in my Google documents storage

    https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0By...JsWUMxVzA/edit


    MJost
    I was actually looking for "1413". According to Ysearch RNNV3 Brady is (supposedly) L513+, while matching HCF2T Brady who is (supposedly) Z253+, yet those two SNPs are understood to be mutually exclusive. To further muddy the waters, 4XPAV McDonnell is negative for everything under DF13, including both L513 and Z253. There's a rotten apple somewhere i that barrel. CXPNR Cain, 188630 Collins, Q4A8X Lunney, E298Q Lunney, y48tn O'Bannon (aka Browne), R3XKU O'Rourke have not tested beyond L21. With the price hike from $29 to $39 per SNP, it may well be that none of them will test further SNPs due to the high cost, low return (one marker!) and unreliability of results. One of the guys who already paid likely got a dud result for his $29. Getting a dud result for $39 is even less palatable. The prospect of finding if Mike's Variety 1413 is L513+ or Z253+ just brew more remote.

    L513 remains a possibility, as the "1113"and "1413" varieties share DYS617=13. The first "1113" Cain to test L513 received a dud result too, in L513-. We were stunned but left off L513 testing until another "1113" Cain ignored my advice & tested. Lo and behold, he got L513+, negating the first guys L513-. Getting a 2nd guy to test obviously doubles the cost. Raising the cost per SNP from $29 to $39 will remove a lot of scrutiny, buy financially deterring folks from double-checking.

    Rory

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    1413 variety FYI:

    I wanted to see how the remaining 67 marker speculative varieties faired in a Phylogram.


    I ran the selected data through my modified McGee Y-Utility: Y-DNA Comparison Utility Using All 67 Markers with optional mutation rates from Marko Heinla rates May 2012. Set Probability to 1-Sigma (68.27%) that specifies that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated. Average generaton: 30 years. L21 modal was the root via first entry. I took that output and imported it into SplitsTree4 which infers the phylogenetic relationships via it output. The file is located in my Google documents folder here.

    L21VarietiesXsubcladesN=347HtCluster.pdf

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y...pwaUM5YWM/edit

    Click File and the down load to your computer. Open and Ctrl-F to find a kit number or variety. Ctrl-Y to zoom in if needed. I have added Excel haplotype subject data in the last pages.

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  8. #6
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    DF13 is a critical marker for L21 people who have not tested downstream. A very large majority of L21+, especially in the British Isles, are turning out to be DF13+.

    I moved this initial post from Vineviz over her to the L21 sub-category where it belongs. I'll post a list of true DF13* and DF63 people so we can look at these subsets of L21+ people.

    As of right now, to be known DF13* you'd have have to be negative for all of these, the large, old subclades of L513(DF1), DF21, DF41, DF49, Z253, Z255, L1335, CTS4466 and the smaller ones, L371, L555, L144.1 and L96.

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    Here are the current unofficial DF13* guys. It's a tough group to make as you have to be DF13+, which isn't too hard since most of L21, but you also have to test negative for the L513 (11-13), DF21 (incl Clan Colla), DF49 (incl NW Irish & WalesSWEng), Z253 (incl Irish III, IV), Z255 (incl Irish Sea/Laigen), DF41, L1335 (Scots & WalesII), and CTS4466 (Irish II). We'll add Z251 to the list soon as a requirement since it is proven to be old too.

    f148326 zzzUnk(Ross) R1b-P312>L21>DF13** zzzUnkOrigin
    fN55408 Smith R1b-P312>L21>DF13** zzzUnkOrigin
    f26082 Dowell R1b-P312>L21>DF13* zzzUnkOrigin
    fN33209 Whidden R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England
    f170191 Bond R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England, South West, Devonshire, Hartland
    f191494 Mann R1b-P312>L21>DF13* zzzUnkOrigin
    f186947 Edgcombe R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
    f208852 Forsythe R1b-P312>L21>DF13** Ireland, Ulster
    f227117 McNeiladge R1b-P312>L21>DF13** Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Barony, Anderston
    f173880 Norris R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England
    fE13942 Robert(LefŤvre) R1b-P312>L21>DF13** France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
    f129603 Watson R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England
    f166617 Wiegand R1b-P312>L21>DF13* Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Eifa
    f134883 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13** Wales
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-21-2013 at 01:45 AM.

  10. #8
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    Just came over from the Yahoo group. I am kit number 198135 L21-DF13**.
    Just mailed in the Chromo 2 test as I continue to look for my still unknown terminal SNP

  11. #9
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    Have BritainsDNA given you a timeframe for results?


    Quote Originally Posted by Brunetmj View Post
    Just came over from the Yahoo group. I am kit number 198135 L21-DF13**.
    Just mailed in the Chromo 2 test as I continue to look for my still unknown terminal SNP

  12. #10
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    Just an email two weeks ago that it arrived at the lab. The web site says 6 to 8 weeks.
    Last edited by Brunetmj; 10-14-2013 at 03:09 AM.

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