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Thread: A new paper on the Y dna N

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    A new paper on the Y dna N

    A new paper on the Y dna N
    Behind pay wall
    http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(16)30160-4

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    We have discussed this paper elsewhere in the forum. For me, a small victory is that the paper officially publishes a mysterious clade they call N5, which is actually the well-known N-P189 that I discovered several years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    We have discussed this paper elsewhere in the forum. For me, a small victory is that the paper officially publishes a mysterious clade they call N5, which is actually the well-known N-P189 that I discovered several years ago.
    Where can we find the results of the study?

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    Some new info
    1) Finns vs Estonians. Finns have N3a4, when Estonians have N3a3 which is shared with other Baltic nations.
    2) Basal N3a3'6 is quite high in Latvians compared to other folk (8%). Eskimos and Karakalpaks are our bros with even higher rate (25%). Could be sample size.
    3) N3a4 seems to be no doubt Finno-ugric.

    Pity they did not go deeper than VL29, but even now there are some new stuff for me. So, good job!

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    From article:
    The most striking aspect of the phylogeography of hg N
    is the spread of the N3a3’6-CTS6967 lineages (Figure 3).
    Considering the three geographically most distant populations
    in our study—Chukchi, Buryats, and Lithuanians—it
    is remarkable to find that about half of the Y chromosome
    pool of each consists of hg N3 and that they share the same
    sub-clade N3a3’6. The fractionation of N3a3’6 into the
    four sub-clades that cover such an extraordinarily wide
    area occurred in the mid-Holocene, about 5.0 kya (95%
    CI ¼ 4.4–5.7 kya). It is hard to pinpoint the precise region
    where the split of these lineages occurred. It could have
    happened somewhere in the middle of their geographic
    spread around the Urals or further east in West Siberia,
    where current regional diversity of hg N sub-lineages is
    the highest (Figure 1. Yet, it is evident that the spread
    of the newly arisen sub-clades of N3a3’6 in opposing
    directions happened very quickly. Today, it unites the
    East Baltic, East Fennoscandia, Buryatia, Mongolia, and
    Chukotka-Kamchatka (Beringian) Eurasian regions, which
    are separated from each other by approximately 5,000–
    6,700 km by air. N3a3’6 has high frequencies in the patrilineal
    pools of populations belonging to the Altaic, Uralic,
    several Indo-European, and Chukotko-Kamchatkan language
    families.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Some new info
    1) Finns vs Estonians. Finns have N3a4, when Estonians have N3a3 which is shared with other Baltic nations.
    2) Basal N3a3'6 is quite high in Latvians compared to other folk (8%). Eskimos and Karakalpaks are our bros with even higher rate (25%). Could be sample size.
    3) N3a4 seems to be no doubt Finno-ugric.

    Pity they did not go deeper than VL29, but even now there are some new stuff for me. So, good job!
    3)" N3a4 seems to be no doubt Finno-ugric."

    What makes you believe that N3a4 is Finno-Ugric?

    http://estonia.eu/about-estonia/soci...c-peoples.html
    Last edited by gravetti; 07-20-2016 at 02:39 PM.

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    I do not think that you can say that Estonians have N3a3 and Finns N3a4. If you look at yfull, you see that VL29 is very frequent in Finland: https://www.yfull.com/tree/N/

    Also this yDNA tree shows that VL29 is typical for Finns: http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

    Also the snips below show that both N3a3 and N3a4 are found in Estonians. Also Saamis have both N3a3 and N3a4.
    yDNA N3a1-3.jpg
    yDNA N3a4 and 5.PNG

    Here is a snip from the new paper:


    You see that the typical Finnish N3a4 is VL62 which is shared with Bashkirs and Estonians.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 07-20-2016 at 02:40 PM.

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    I failed to upload the snip, so I try a new post:
    Attachment 10523

    This is from the paper:
    Even though our sample of the north Scandinavian (Swedish)
    Saami is of limited size, the nearly equal presence of both
    N3a3 and N3a4 Y chromosomes in their hg N3 pool (Table
    S2) suggests that the frequency pattern of the two lineages
    has been shaped by random genetic drift in historically
    small populations dispersed across a wide area.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 07-20-2016 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Some new info
    1) Finns vs Estonians. Finns have N3a4, when Estonians have N3a3 which is shared with other Baltic nations.
    2) Basal N3a3'6 is quite high in Latvians compared to other folk (8%). Eskimos and Karakalpaks are our bros with even higher rate (25%). Could be sample size.
    3) N3a4 seems to be no doubt Finno-ugric.

    Pity they did not go deeper than VL29, but even now there are some new stuff for me. So, good job!

    N3a3 is VL29, because of low resolution we know Balts have more specifically M2783 while Estonians have L1022 and various L550's, and also N3a4 (Z1936).

    Finland's high N3a4 is mostly, according to Yfull's tree, the result of a 2000 years old founder effect, more recent than that of M2783 (look up Z1933). They did not link many N3a3'6 subclades to languages for a reason, N3a4 for example is absent from both Udmurts and Mari, though Maris have N3a3.

    But N3a3'6 itself is young enough that perhaps it could have been carried by speakers of some extant language family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravetti View Post
    3)" N3a4 seems to be no doubt Finno-ugric."

    What makes you believe that N3a4 is Finno-Ugric?

    http://estonia.eu/about-estonia/soci...c-peoples.html
    Modern frequencies I know stupid answer, but I would be extremely surprised if it arose in some other population not Uralic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I do not think that you can say that Estonians have N3a3 and Finns N3a4.
    Well, made such statement just based on frequencies. Estonian N is 80% or so N3a3 and 20% or so N3a4. For Finns it is vice versa (25/75 or so, as per study).
    But it could be because of founder effect in Finns as per Shaikorth:
    "Finland's high N3a4 is mostly, according to Yfull's tree, the result of a 2000 years old founder effect, more recent than that of M2783 (look up Z1933)."

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