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Thread: A new paper on the Y dna N

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Thanks, lgmayka. If IR1 belongs to N-Y6503(xP189.2) and has a TMRCA with N-P189.2 that is not significantly more recent than the TMRCA of N-Y6503 and N-Z4762, then the significance of the Eastern connection apparent in that specimen's mtDNA is greatly reduced.

    In that case, does anyone know the country of origin of YF01795, the only example of N-P189.2(xY7310) listed on the current version of the YFull tree?
    If I following you & Larry, and the data from YFull & the Illumae paper, it points to a very early, perhaps pre-LGM branching of the' European' branch of N from the rest.
    On the other hand, IR1's autosomal make-up points to recent admixture, or perhaps arrival from, beyond the Urals.

    "LBK_EN:I0056" 32.85
    "Samara_Eneolithic:I0433" 18.1
    "Karasuk:RISE494" 17.6
    "Altai_IA:RISE492" 11.2
    "Satsurblia:SATP" 5.6
    "AfontovaGora3:I9050.damage" 5.1
    Whilst new aDNA can change this, it looks like there might have been at least a couple of movements of haplogroup N west, but they don;t appear to have been much earlier than the mid Bronze Age: one from a divergent branch (perhaps in western Siberia), and another, perhaps later one, bringing a package of haplogroup Ns (with local founder effects), and Uralic languages.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 11-14-2016 at 09:04 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    If I following you & Larry, and the data from YFull & the Illumae paper, it points to a very early, perhaps pre-LGM branching of the' European' branch of N from the rest.
    On the other hand, IR1's autosomal make-up points to recent admixture, or perhaps arrival from, beyond the Urals.
    IR1's mtDNA, which belongs to haplogroup G2a1 according to Cristina Gamba et al. (2014), also may point to a recent arrival from eastern Asia. (G2a occurs quite frequently among modern Turkic and Mongolic peoples, and also among Tharus in southern Nepal. It has been found throughout East Asia with somewhat lower frequency.)

    However, it may be inferred from the presence of N-Z4784 almost exclusively in East Asia with a great TMRCA (approx. 13,000 ybp according to YFull, with many subclades of great time depth present in China) that at least some members of Y-DNA haplogroup N had proliferated in East Asia at an early date (although the presence of N-L732, one subclade of N-Z4784, in at least Belarus, China, and Poland with a TMRCA of approx. 7,800 ybp further complicates the picture). N-Z4784's sister clade, N-CTS12473, also has been found almost exclusively in East Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Himalayas, but it has a less impressive TMRCA (approx. 6,600 ybp according to YFull), and one example also is known from a Telugu in the UK (HG04015; TMRCA with Chinese & Vietnamese N-M1812 approx. 5,100 ybp). If the entire N-F2905 clade, which subsumes N-Z4784 and N-CTS12473, is assumed to have originated and expanded in East Asia, then at least one member of N-Z4762(xL729) must have lived somewhere in East Asia approx. 16,000 years ago. The estimated TMRCA of European N-P189.2 and the IR1 specimen's N-Y6503(xP189.2) Y-DNA is approx. 21,800 ybp, which predates the MRCA of N-F2905 (who has already been assumed to have lived in East Asia at approx. 16,000 ybp). It is even possible (though not very parsimonious) that IR1's Y-DNA might represent a now extinct (or at least not yet observed) East Asian branch of N-Y6503, parallel to a N-P189.2 lineage of more ancient residence in Europe, and a member of this hypothetical East Asian branch of N-Y6503 has happened to migrate (back?) into Europe to be detected as IR1. The spread of Haplogroup N would become extremely difficult to interpret if deep branches of the N-Z4784(xL732) and N-CTS12473 lineages happened to turn up in Europe in additional samples of modern or, especially, ancient DNA.

    Despite the ambiguity of evidence regarding the origin and dispersal of haplogroup N, I would say that even the MRCA of N-Z4762 and N-Y6503 (i.e. the MRCA of all currently known examples of Y-DNA haplogroup N) is post-LGM in age (TMRCA approx. 22,100 [95% CI 19,900 <-> 24,400] ybp). The burning question about Haplogroup N is where its post-LGM spread has begun: near the western end, near the center, or near the eastern end of Eurasia. For now, I tentatively guess that it might have originated near the center of Eurasia. However, it is plausible that the ancestors of haplogroup N and haplogroup O (TMRCA 36,800 [95% CI 34,300 <-> 39,300] ybp) might have shared a homeland in North Asia (cf. Ust'-Ishim K2a*/pre-X'NO in southwestern Siberia approx. 45,000 ybp) before being separated by deteriorating climatic conditions leading up to the LGM. (In that connection, note that haplogroup O retains the most ancient diversity of any of the mainland Eurasian subclades of haplogroup K2, so it seems likely that it may have been the first to move south(east)ward to escape the deteriorating climate of the north, assuming an earlier homeland in Siberia for every one of those subclades. The ancestors of N, Q, and R might have lingered around the northern habitable extremes of Eurasia for somewhat longer.)

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  4. #153
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    G2a seems to be old in the Baikal area, as it has been detected already in the Baikal Neolithic. It is also found on the steppe area from Northern China to Eastern Europe in particular during the Iron Age. I have taken note of the following ancient G2 samples:

    Neolithic Baikal Lokomotiv Kitoi G2a, Neolithic Baikal Shamanka G2ax3, Bronze Age Baikal Ust’Ida G2a x4, Bronze Age Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang G2a (223-227-278-362),

    LBA Mezhovskaya Kapova Cave Russia M12'G (G2a?) (223 278 362 519),

    Late Xiaohe Xinjiang G2a (223-278-293-297-362), Tagar Iron Age Oust-Abakansty Khakassia G2a (93 223 234 288 298 327), G2a Egyin Gol, G2a1 (223 278 362 519),

    Iron Age Inner Mongolia Jinggouzi G2a1 (223-227-278-293-362), Iron Age Inner Mongolia Jinggouzi G2a1 (93 223-227-234-278-309-362), Iron Age Inner Mongolia Jinggouzi G2a (93 223-227-278-362), Iron Age Inner Mongolia Jinggouzi G2a (93 223-278-362), Iron Age Inner Mongolia Jinggouzi G2a1 (223-278-293-362),

    Mezocsat Ludas-Varju-dulo Hungary (IR1) G2a1 (223 278 362 519),

    Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk Tsengel Khairkhan Mongolia G2, Scythian IA Nadezhdinka Samara G2a4,
    Hun Conq Hungary G2a, Hun Conq Hungary G2a (227G)

    Its origin does not seem very southern, and in any case it was typical of later Eurasian Nomads, such as Scythians, Turks and Mongols.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 11-14-2016 at 09:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Does Ust'_Ishm: 42 ky BP, NO * count ?
    (Not really N, I know).
    I don't think so

    Isn't the Oase man suppose to be
    NO* or a closely related branch as well? Either way it seem odd that N (not NO) hasn't been found in anyone who lived before the middle to late Neolithic.

  7. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    I don't think so
    Ok !

    Isn't the Oase man suppose to be NO*
    Formally reported as F*, but could be IJK. I've not seen anyone claim NO.

    Either way it seem odd that N (not NO) hasn't been found in anyone who lived before the middle to late Neolithic.
    probably not odd given that we have no Mesolithic samples from Siberia / trans Urals.
    Botai might be interesting.

  8. #156
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    Oase1 was confirmed to be NO* in Poznick et al (2016) "Punctuated bursts..." paper.

    Right now we don't actually have very much pre-Neolithic DNA from Asia, so it's not surprising that we don't have old N.

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  10. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Right now we don't actually have very much pre-Neolithic DNA from Asia, so it's not surprising that we don't have old N.
    This is true, but I am more so comparing other haplogroups found in North Eurasia like R and Q which have been found in multiple ancient Pre Neolithic samples located in North Eurasia, somwhere N should be found too.

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  12. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Oase1 was confirmed to be NO* in Poznick et al (2016) "Punctuated bursts..." paper.

    Right now we don't actually have very much pre-Neolithic DNA from Asia, so it's not surprising that we don't have old N.
    Thanks MegaloP. Big find
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 11-15-2016 at 03:07 AM.

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