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Thread: New DF27 SNPs and subclades

  1. #1
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    New DF27 SNPs and subclades

    Any and all info pertaining to this subclade of P312.

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    David F Reynolds provided a list of SNPs which are tested in the Geno 2.0 here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8yel8ddsq...eno-Y-SNPs.txt

    DF27 is not listed but a number of downstream SNPs are: Z195, Z274 (upstream from both DF17 and Z209), Z220 and others.
    R1b-P312-DF7+ DF17+ CTS7768+ FGC14124+
    13-23-15-11-11-14-12-12-11-13-15-30
    Earliest known Y ancestor: Hesse, Germany 1705

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    Old thread, same topic: P312, DF27, and whatever else is found downstream. I'm R-Z2573; what does that tell me? Where in Iberia did this come from?
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ears..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousII View Post
    Old thread, same topic: P312, DF27, and whatever else is found downstream. I'm R-Z2573; what does that tell me? Where in Iberia did this come from?
    We're not much more advanced today than we were in 2012. No one really knows where DF27 came from or how and when it got where it is today. No aDNA DF27 has yet been found. Iberia is just where you can find today a lot of DF27 but that doesn't mean it originated there. It probably didn't. My favourite fantasy is a tale of 3 tribes that lived somewere in Central Europe and one day (quarreled?) and decided to part ways in different directions. One went west to the Islands (L21), another moved a bit south and west (U152) and the third went southwest far from all the others (DF27). Each tribe was joined by small groups of malcontents from the other two tribes. Does anyone know a better story?

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  6. #5
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    It seems that DF27s had more troublemakers than the other tribes, as more of them are found today elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lugus View Post
    We're not much more advanced today than we were in 2012. No one really knows where DF27 came from or how and when it got where it is today. No aDNA DF27 has yet been found. Iberia is just where you can find today a lot of DF27 but that doesn't mean it originated there. It probably didn't. My favourite fantasy is a tale of 3 tribes that lived somewere in Central Europe and one day (quarreled?) and decided to part ways in different directions. One went west to the Islands (L21), another moved a bit south and west (U152) and the third went southwest far from all the others (DF27). Each tribe was joined by small groups of malcontents from the other two tribes. Does anyone know a better story?
    The 3 brothers (or snp) have to originate from an ancestor who is in neither of these locations (West Islands/South West Italy/ Spain) and this ancestor has to be M343/M269/P312.
    in this link you can find a list of ancient DNA. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml
    M269 is already present in Russia Yamnaya 2900/3300bc and P312 is present later in Germany Bell Beaker 2400bc.
    So DF27 grand grand....dad was in South Germany, fine. From there in my opinion, it all depends on how you travel. If you are a single man on horse or boat, you can go wherever you want but if you are a full clan with children, elderly people and cattle herds, it is easier, in my opinion, to move North to the European low plains and flat lands where you will contact inevitably with the shore of the Northern Sea. From there, you are now in shorter range of the British Isles and Scandinavia than Spain.
    Perhaps both situations occurred. Some DF27 adventurers went through the mountains or the sea to reach Spain while some Df27 families moved north to the plains.
    But nothing says that the 3 brothers have to appear at the same time. As long as the P312 ancestral gene pool stays in South Germany, you can imagine one L21-carrying son (or clan) took his mutation with him to the British Isles, then 500 years another mutation pops up from the P312 gene pool, say it was DF27, whose carrying clan decided to take a different route etc.
    If the appearance of the Df27, U152 and L21 is spread over 500 years, that doesn't make them really brothers anymore.

    I can remember a documentary where they found a jewel made of amber in a city of the near East, older than Ur I recall, like 4000bc. Well the amber was from Scandinavia which shows people moved a lot already by that time.

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    I think DF27 has a Copper Age spread from Central Europe -> Iberia. During the Bronze Age, I'm envisioning trade routes along the Atlantic back north into NW Europe and Scandinavia.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousII View Post
    I'm R-Z2573; what does that tell me?
    The Z2573 mutation was only recently discovered in 2015 by Ray Banks from samples of the 1000 Genomes project. YFull age estimation for Z2573 is 4300 years ago. So far the known main next downstream SNPs for Z2573 are Z29620 and Z29624/FGC32092 that branch off from there.

    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php...640&star=false

    FTDNA started testing Z2573 this past Oct. and a few downstream SNPs only in there pack test's for $119.

    YSEQ.net has Sanger Sequenced testing for Z2573 and the downstream SNP's that are known.

    http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=11335

    http://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_...tion=1&x=5&y=7

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    Quote Originally Posted by REWM View Post
    The Z2573 mutation was only recently discovered in 2015 by Ray Banks...
    FTDNA started testing Z2573 this past Oct. and a few downstream SNPs only in there pack test's for $119.
    YSEQ.net has Sanger Sequenced testing for Z2573 and the downstream SNP's that are known.
    Thanks for that one, REWM! FTDNA Admins told me that I'm downstream as far as I can get when it comes to additional snip tests, so that YSEQ link is much appreciated.
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ears..."

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    YSEQ tests quickly, responds nimbly to new SNP discoveries (unless they are discovered in a region Thomas and Astrid don't want to fool with), and has somewhat lower prices than FTDNA. However, YSEQ test results aren't reported to FTDNA project admins, let alone logged by its computers. They won't be visible in your displayed results (in FTDNA haplogroup or surname projects), even if you tell us what results you got. If you have tested any STRs at FTDNA (to make you visible in a project) we can manually move you into the right subgroup, assuming we have one. But that's about it.

    REWM likes to promote YSEQ (and complain about FTDNA); and I may agree with some of it. But he doesn't have to juggle the 1400+ people in their DF27 project -- nor stay within their corporate guidelines for admins (not promoting their competitors, respecting project members' privacy, and so on).

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