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Thread: Map of Slavic y-dna in Greece, compiled by user Passa

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by griegoteo View Post
    Incredible thread - appreciate the various opinions and insights. I always considered Greek DNA to be unique from other Balkan DNA, but clearly that's not the case. The DNA I inherited from my 100% Greek (Peloponnesos) father and maternal grandfather comes out different in every interpretation. Italian, "NE European", Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Asia Minor, West Asia, Horn of Africa to name a few.
    What are the frequencies within these components? I think thats what it depends on. Generally, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, and to a lesser extent, Bulgarians, seem to cluster with one another. Despite linguistic differences. I think this is due to Byzantium that we have such shared composition. In references with no Albanian, I score more eastern shifted Tuscan, Greek_Thessaly, Abruzzo, Lazio etc.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    This is not correct - Anatolian and Pontic Greeks were settled all over Greece and some of the islands. Highest percent was in Macedonia and Thrace, because a huge proportion of the population there - Slavs and Ottoman Turks also left around 1912-1922.

    Attachment 20003
    If they left, how do you explain the considerable Slavic Y-DNA patterns? I can see your position making sense if the majority of R1a/I2a Greeks are from a founder affect. It could explain why the lineage grew from assimilated Slavs while the rest were the ones that left. Thats the only scenario that makes sense. Otherwise, if a founder affect is not responsible for the considerable R1a/I2a, then it seems that almost all R1a/I2a in Greeks is from assimilated great migration Slavs. Maybe the ones that left were those who ethnically remained Slavic.

    For example, I am suspected to belong to R1a-M458. No call, but predicted. They assume I am YP515. I have no matches other than an Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia, with a TMRCA of 1000 years. They are also convinced it formed a founder effect, and may be considered a Balkan specific R1a clade resulting from Great Migration Slavs, and or, in lesser likelihood Goths. Currently testing with Full Genomes to confirm these predictions.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

  3. #263
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    Well, only some of the Bulgarians and Macedonians left Greece during that period. Some stayed and due to the aggressive Greek assimilation policies are practically Greek now. Some of the Slav introgression into Greeks goes back to Byzantine times, but some is quite recent. The so called Thracian Greeks(at least those who lived inland, excluding the bigger cities), are maybe direct descendants of Slavs, who settled there only after 16th centuries and Hellenised even later during Ottoman times. Most of them also moved to other parts of Greece during the 20th c. population exchanges.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to eastara For This Useful Post:

     Gravetto-Danubian (11-28-2017)

  5. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    If they left, how do you explain the considerable Slavic Y-DNA patterns? I can see your position making sense if the majority of R1a/I2a Greeks are from a founder affect. It could explain why the lineage grew from assimilated Slavs while the rest were the ones that left. Thats the only scenario that makes sense. Otherwise, if a founder affect is not responsible for the considerable R1a/I2a, then it seems that almost all R1a/I2a in Greeks is from assimilated great migration Slavs. Maybe the ones that left were those who ethnically remained Slavic.

    For example, I am suspected to belong to R1a-M458. No call, but predicted. They assume I am YP515. I have no matches other than an Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia, with a TMRCA of 1000 years. They are also convinced it formed a founder effect, and may be considered a Balkan specific R1a clade resulting from Great Migration Slavs, and or, in lesser likelihood Goths. Currently testing with Full Genomes to confirm these predictions.
    Why not with bigY ? Id help sponsor your 'cousin' in Gostivar

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     Dibran (11-28-2017)

  7. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Why not with bigY ? Id help sponsor your 'cousin' in Gostivar
    Well, Full Genomes is far superior. And whilst I cant get the direct interface benefit offered by bigY, using the data to upload to Yfull, and giving access to the R1a admins, should help accomplish the same objective. With regards to the individual from Gostivar, he tested with Yseq. the match was noted by Albanian bloodlines and Michal. I have no contact with the individual, but, I imagine if you reach out to the user Trojet, he should be able to reach out to this tester to see if he'd like sponsorship. I would contribute along with you if thats the case. But, given the TMRCA is 1000 years, what other information can be extracted from a match getting the same exact test? I have more general understandings regarding autosomal genetics, so I am not to privy to the process of haplogroups and how it all connects(when having various matches do the test). I assume its a sort of puzzle piece, that makes clear, leaving less room for assumption?

    I contacted another Albanian that I match autosomally(which may not be indicative), who happens to be R-M417(theres a chance its not even a match). But, given stories of a Koci clan in Eprius, this southern Albanian could likely be part of a wider R1a tree. I emailed him asking if I could pay for a basic y37 on ftdna to see if there is a match, but I received no response yet. Fullgenomes said the results for my Yelite WGS will be available end of December early January. So, I will post results when I get them.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

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     Gravetto-Danubian (11-29-2017)

  9. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Well, only some of the Bulgarians and Macedonians left Greece during that period. Some stayed and due to the aggressive Greek assimilation policies are practically Greek now. Some of the Slav introgression into Greeks goes back to Byzantine times, but some is quite recent. The so called Thracian Greeks(at least those who lived inland, excluding the bigger cities), are maybe direct descendants of Slavs, who settled there only after 16th centuries and Hellenised even later during Ottoman times. Most of them also moved to other parts of Greece during the 20th c. population exchanges.
    Well, we're basically on the same page. I guess we just misunderstood time periods. I guess I thought you were saying no Slavs remained in Greece and were all removed. Which is why I had mentioned that if that were the case, Slavic Y-DNA wouldnt have the impact it does. Granted, these are still Greeks. I merely mean within the context of their forefathers arrival. I imagine most Slavic YDNA in Greece and maybe Albania, was resultant of Byzantine assimilationS. I have read in some documents that not all the Slavic groups were given to conflict. Some were peaceful, farmed, integrated, assimilated, etc. The Ydna patterns in Greece could very well be from those who were absorbed. With regards to Slavs from the ottoman period forward, I don't know much with regards to where they were in Greece, or settlements/displacement.
    Last edited by Dibran; 11-28-2017 at 11:28 PM.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

  10. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    If they left, how do you explain the considerable Slavic Y-DNA patterns? I can see your position making sense if the majority of R1a/I2a Greeks are from a founder affect. It could explain why the lineage grew from assimilated Slavs while the rest were the ones that left. Thats the only scenario that makes sense. Otherwise, if a founder affect is not responsible for the considerable R1a/I2a, then it seems that almost all R1a/I2a in Greeks is from assimilated great migration Slavs. Maybe the ones that left were those who ethnically remained Slavic.

    For example, I am suspected to belong to R1a-M458. No call, but predicted. They assume I am YP515. I have no matches other than an Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia, with a TMRCA of 1000 years. They are also convinced it formed a founder effect, and may be considered a Balkan specific R1a clade resulting from Great Migration Slavs, and or, in lesser likelihood Goths. Currently testing with Full Genomes to confirm these predictions.
    I have said elsewhere that in ancient Macedonia (which mostly corresponds to 'Aegean' Macedonia) there were Macedonians proper, many Thracians, some Epirotes, some Illyrians and Ionians in coastal regions. That was true when Strabo lived ( 64 or 63 BC – c. AD 24). And there are other movements later that make the situation complex.

    And there are no good studies. The sampling methods are important. Concerning your case what they say is probably reasonable but not necessarily correct. [When people make similar conclusions, I want them to state all the premises they consider to be true, which is something that most don't do]

    ---
    Not all Slavic-speakers left but without the exchanges the Muslims who would probably identify as Turks by now would have been the plurality in Macedonia.
    Last edited by Kanenas; 02-10-2018 at 08:30 AM.

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     Dibran (02-12-2018)

  12. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    I have said elsewhere that in ancient Macedonia (which mostly corresponds to 'Aegean' Macedonia) there were Macedonians proper, many Thracians, some Epirotes, some Illyrians and Ionians in coastal regions. That was true when Strabo lived ( 64 or 63 BC – c. AD 24). And there are other movements later that make the situation complex.

    And there are no good studies. The sampling methods are important. Concerning your case what they say is probably reasonable but not necessarily correct. [When people make similar conclusions, I want them to state all the premises they consider to be true, which is something that most don't do]

    ---
    Not all Slavic-speakers left but without the exchanges the Muslims who would probably identify as Turks by now would have been the plurality in Macedonia.
    Sorry for the delayed response. Anthro never sends me the damn notification, lol. So a little update from my recent post. I finally got my Y elite results and uploaded to Yfull. I am confirmed R1a-M458-L1029*, negative downstream, with 25(24 stable) unique SNPs. My "close" matches are all with a TMRCA of 2000ypb or further. It appears the Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia is still my closest match with a TMRCA of 1000ypb between us. I suspect it was from the early slavic tribes that were assimilated into byzantium. I also noticed a autosomal match I have, has people with my surname in his family tree. These are Orthodox folk with my name is Berat/Korce Southern Albania and Epirus region. There were a medieval Koci clan from Epirus who were said to be Arvanites of mixed Albanian Greek and Vlach origin. One branch of that clan migrated to western Macedonia is the 15-1600s, right on the border where my region of origin in Albania is located. Of which we have record of 300-350 years. Recently Lukasz did an ancestry report for me. All mine and my fathers autosomal population admixture placed us closest to Epirus. I wonder if then, my R1a came with Arvanite Albanian clan from Epirus descended from earlier Slavic tribe. Either exchanged hands from Byzantine to Greek and or Vlach, or directly into Albanian depending where and when(always other factors). The only other candidates other than Slavs would have to be the Ostrogoths. Another possibility is it could have arrived with Varangian, who were hired from Russia and the Balts as well. My village was also settled by German mercenaries in 900AD, which could have brought an East German with the line. Or even Venetians could have brought it with their Venetian Dalmatian troops when they occupied Albania. Most likely would be the Baiounitai that settled around Southern Albania and Northern Greece. It is interesting I am basal L1029 and negative downstream. I likely form my own cluster with my Gostivar match(who sadly doesnt want to test further). I suppose I can test my father or a cousin to build the cluster between us. But, other than Gostivar Albanian match, all my TMRCAs with my extended matches are between 1800-2300ypb per yfull estimates. So roughly 2000TMRCA between me and the rest of my matches. I only have one close STR match which is the L1029 sample from Beijing, China. roughly 100 SNP matches.With closest being a Cagliari sample, and 2 Germans and a Norwegian. They all seem to be L1029*.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

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