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Thread: Map of Slavic y-dna in Greece, compiled by user Passa

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Please read more carefully SD
    I said "Macedonia was almost wholly depopulated"
    It's beyond doubt. Several landscape surveys have been conducted in almost every Greek region by Western and Greek scholars, and even modern Greek scholars now admit the massive population flux occurred in the Middle Ages

    But of course, this does not mean all of Greece was depopulated. Several towns esp along the eastern coast of Greece continued though the dark ages of the 7-9th century

    As for EV13 specifically, I cannot yet answer , but will be able to do so in a couple of years
    As I've mentioned elsewhere, we need to dissect within and beyond E-V13. It obviously arrived in the Neolithic, but I suspect it re-expanded in the Middle Ages from somewhere in the Balkans .
    ? Epirus ? Peloponnesus
    A huge influx of Slavs and other Grecophones doesn't imply the area got totally depopulated. You know very well that scholars' analyses lack the accuracy of scientific genetic research...

    @Sikeliot: The E-V13 STR clusters in Macedonia and in most of Greece are not the same as the Albanian ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sciencediver View Post
    A huge influx of Slavs and other Grecophones doesn't imply the area got totally depopulated. You know very well that scholars' analyses lack the accuracy of scientific genetic research...

    @Sikeliot: The E-V13 STR clusters in Macedonia and in most of Greece are not the same as the Albanian ones.
    I think the genetic evidence suggests similar- as Tomenable stated
    We can tentatively estimate a 50% slavic impact in Gr Macedonia (of course, this was more like80% in the Middle Ages, as Slavs were used as soldiers / transferred out by the emperors) genetically (autosomes, Y DNA).
    Of course, I stress this is tentative and simplistic without aDNA.
    Some of the southernmost Danubian Slavs already had Greek like and Thracian admixture before they arrived. And the problem is they cremated mostly !
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 07-24-2016 at 07:49 PM.

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    https://www.dropbox.com/s/mx140ag014...Y-DNA.ods?dl=0

    ^A table with all Greek Y-DNA data I could find, and which I used for the map. R1a and most of I were assumed to be Slavic.
    Hidden Content

    Ancestral paternal origin: MHG (Maghrebi Hunter-Gatherer)>Mauretanian or Numidian (?)>Roman Auxilia or slave (?)
    Ancestral maternal origin: ENF (European Neolithic Farmer)>Proto-Germanic>Langobardic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I think the genetic evidence suggests similar- as Tomenable stated
    We can tentatively estimate a 50% slavic impact in Gr Macedonia (of course, this was more like80% in the Middle Ages, as Slavs were used as soldiers / transferred out by the emperors) genetically (autosomes, Y DNA).
    Of course, I stress this is tentative and simplistic without aDNA.
    Some of the southernmost Danubian Slavs already had Greek like and Thracian admixture before they arrived. And the problem is they cremated mostly !
    South Slavic admixture in Greece was already estimated by Hellenthal et al, at 37%.

    http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

    The 80% slavic estimation you're suggesting for Macedonia is a bit too generous .In my opinion an invading population cannot outnumber a native one by such a margin, but like you said one cannot speculate so I'd wait for some medieval and ancient DNA as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Based on several studies of Greek Macedonians , since 2000. It's a well studied area
    It includes all modern Greek Macedonians .

    Remember that Macedonia was almost wholly depopulated by 620 AD (outside notable exceptions - such as towns like Thessalniki and Philippi), so with no Slavs and Anatolian/ Armenian Byzantines, there'd be no modern "Greek Macedonians""
    Am I wrong to ask for sources? I think not. And he should clarify which subclades he considers 'Slavic'. We can guess of course.

    Greece overall isn't a well studied area.

    About what it includes, I don't know what the sampling method of each study is. They should state if they include those with Asia Minor and Pontic origin or not. They should also say which cities of Greek Macedonia they sample.

    About the depopulation I would like a citation too.

    I am one of those who think that Slavic input in Greece as a whole is significant but unquantifiable currently.

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    Also, Thracians were the majority in Macedonia according to Strabo. There were also Epirotes, Illyrians and others.

    Basically we should ask if a certain subclade which is thought to be 'Slavic' could have existed among Thracians. If that's true that subclade could have existed among late antiquity Greeks, for example. Of course there were many medieval movements of people in Greece and almost everywhere in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Am I wrong to ask for sources? I think not. And he should clarify which subclades he considers 'Slavic'. We can guess of course.

    Greece overall isn't a well studied area.

    About what it includes, I don't know what the sampling method of each study is. They should state if they include those with Asia Minor and Pontic origin or not. They should also say which cities of Greek Macedonia they sample.

    About the depopulation I would like a citation too.

    I am one of those who think that Slavic input in Greece as a whole is significant but unquantifiable currently.
    Do you really know so little about your own country ?
    Sure, I'll happily let you know soon

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    I know everything about my country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    I know everything about my country.
    Lol
    Ok. I'll educate you the scientific, non chauvinistic evidence
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 07-24-2016 at 08:26 PM.

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    Mtdna-wise Northern Greeks are also not far from the rest of Greece , as opposed to medieval Byzantine Sagalassos, in Anatolia. Which again, proves scholars wrong.

    The archaeological site of Sagalassos is located in Southwest Turkey, in the western part of the Taurus mountain range. Human occupation of its territory is attested from the late 12th millennium BP up to the 13th century AD. By analysing the mtDNA variation in 85 skeletons from Sagalassos dated to the 11th–13th century AD, this study attempts to reconstruct the genetic signature potentially left in this region of Anatolia by the many civilizations, which succeeded one another over the centuries until the mid-Byzantine period (13th century BC).
    Haplogroup composition in Sagalassos was investigated by means of the PCA (Supplementary Table 9). In the two-dimensional plot (Supplementary Figure S1), which explains 32% of the total variation, Sagalassos is located in a marginal position, close to a cluster of populations from the Caucasus (the Georgian sample being the closest to Sagalassos), the East Mediterranean (Cyprus and Rhodes) and the samples from the Near/Middle East. In this pool of populations, contribution of haplogroups U3, N1, U1 and HV to the first and second PC was found to be particularly high (Supplementary Figure S2).
    Yellow dots:




    Source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083616/

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