Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 142

Thread: [Split] The Early Turks: Distribution & Demographic Outcomes

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,213
    Sex

    [Split] The Early Turks: Distribution & Demographic Outcomes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    Such analogies are often flawed. Often small but important components are ignored for the external credibility.
    As a result, the concept of "a handful of savages captured numerous civilized society and imposed their language" is widespread and using to explain various historical paradoxes.
    However, on closer examination the number of savages often is understated (or there is no reliable data on the number), and the wildness of savages is exaggerated. On the other hand, power, strength and the large number of "civilized people" is exaggerated.
    Favorite example of adepts of this concept - the Ottoman Empire.
    Well I think the Steppic or 'Barbarian', violence-heavy contribution to the evolution of political structure and social organisation in Eurasia has been severely underestimated, and the 'Civilised', agrarian, economic-heavy contribution has been greatly overestimated, because all the people with extensive literate traditions, Europeans, Chinese, Persians or Indians, are all settled people that have developed a historiographical hatred for Inner Asian nomads and other 'primitives', and this bleeds over into modern times. But, whatever direction the exaggerations may have been--I think the past is, if anything, portrayed as more peaceful than it actually was--the Turkification of Anatolia is a bad example to illustrate how 'civilised' the Steppic peoples were. It was one of the most gruesome periods of history in that part of the world, with the Christian population declining precipitously due to repeated massacres and pillaging of cities, in two periods separated by a period of peace. This is anyway expected, because in the first period, the Turks still retained the social structure they had on the steppes, with tribal clans and family federations forming the basis of Seljuk power and a disempowered institutional state structure; the Seljuks in Iran, for example, sent the Turkic clans under its control--clans, preserving the old way of life, and which still did not live in settled habitations yet--up North, where their methods of battle with the Byzantines retained many characteristics of the raiding and pillage style of warfare used on the Steppe. After the establishment of the Sultanate of Rum, which resulted in a period of stability and re-urbanisation, the Mongol Invasions resulted in a second collapse of central authority, the local Turkic elites fissioned into many tiny clan-based Beys, reverting yet again to Steppe-like methods of social organisation and unleashing another wave of violence.

    This second period is notable because the collapse of institutional life was so complete that the Persianate high culture was lost, and the subsequent Ottoman Empire, itself a bey that recentralised authority in Anatolia via conquest, had to use Turkish as its language of administration.

    Chronicles of war in the first period record well the dismal list of cities put to the sword, and Greek visitors to Anatolia in the second period decry the cities falling into disrepair, populated with a much diminished number of poor, illiterate Christians, living at subsistence, whose faith had degenerated into the grossest superstition in the absence of organisational support. The mixed steppe-agrarian origin of the Ottomans leaves an institutional legacy in the retention of hereditary beys, the importance of courtly and military slaves to the state as the clan structure and the ethnic distinctiveness of the foreign Turkic military class diminishes, and the non-existent succession policy, where any prospective sultan has to eliminate all his brothers before his position is secure.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-23-2016 at 08:00 AM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ryukendo For This Useful Post:

     Gravetto-Danubian (07-23-2016),  lgmayka (07-23-2016),  Michał (07-23-2016)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    387
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Well I think the Steppic or 'Barbarian', violence-heavy contribution to the evolution of political structure and social organisation in Eurasia has been severely underestimated, and the 'Civilised', agrarian, economic-heavy contribution has been greatly overestimated, because all the people with extensive literate traditions, Europeans, Chinese, Persians or Indians, are all settled people that have developed a historiographical hatred for Inner Asian nomads and other 'primitives', and this bleeds over into modern times. But, whatever direction the exaggerations may have been--I think the past is, if anything, portrayed as more peaceful than it actually was--the Turkification of Anatolia is a bad example to illustrate how 'civilised' the Steppic peoples were. It was one of the most gruesome periods of history in that part of the world, with the Christian population declining precipitously due to repeated massacres and pillaging of cities, in two periods separated by a period of peace. This is anyway expected, because in the first period, the Turks still retained the social structure they had on the steppes, with tribal clans and family federations forming the basis of Seljuk power and a disempowered institutional state structure; the Seljuks in Iran, for example, sent the Turkic clans under its control--clans, preserving the old way of life, and which still did not live in settled habitations yet--up North, where their methods of battle with the Byzantines retained many characteristics of the raiding and pillage style of warfare used on the Steppe. After the establishment of the Sultanate of Rum, which resulted in a period of stability and re-urbanisation, the Mongol Invasions resulted in a second collapse of central authority, the local Turkic elites fissioned into many tiny clan-based Beys, reverting yet again to Steppe-like methods of social organisation and unleashing another wave of violence.

    This second period is notable because the collapse of institutional life was so complete that the Persianate high culture was lost, and the subsequent Ottoman Empire, itself a bey that recentralised authority in Anatolia via conquest, had to use Turkish as its language of administration.

    Chronicles of war in the first period record well the dismal list of cities put to the sword, and Greek visitors to Anatolia in the second period decry the cities falling into disrepair, populated with a much diminished number of poor, illiterate Christians, living at subsistence, whose faith had degenerated into the grossest superstition in the absence of organisational support. The mixed steppe-agrarian origin of the Ottomans leaves an institutional legacy in the retention of hereditary beys, the importance of courtly and military slaves to the state as the clan structure and the ethnic distinctiveness of the foreign Turkic military class diminishes, and the non-existent succession policy, where any prospective sultan has to eliminate all his brothers before his position is secure.
    I will explain.
    Take for example a savage tribe of the Amazon, which lives by primitive system already 5000 years and the Soviet Union, created in 1922.
    The Soviet Union had nuclear and space industry and lasted 69 years. The tribe is still intact. What does this mean? Primitive society wins? No. Ussr collapsed through its own inefficiency (political, economic), and not because of the space industry. Byzantine Empire collapsed through its own inefficiency, and an abstract "high culture" did not matter. Byzantium was decrepit ineffective theocracy before death. Seljuks were only a catalyst but not the cause of the fall of the empire.
    Why are these arguments? They are indirectly related to the theory of invasion to India and the concept, according to which, elite domination of barbarians can fundamentally change the linguistic picture. This seemingly illogical concept is not supported by empirical observations and examples.

    I don’t know how much originally Turkic-speaking population were in Ottoman Empire at start , but I think it can be 40-50%. And then model the "melting pot" was launched when multimillion migration during hundreds of years to Ottoman Empire led to the erosion of the titular nation with a stable language situation. But it is the «melting pot» model, not a model "elite dominance". So purely speculative concept "elite domination of the barbarians" is not confirmed by empirical examples and should not be used as an argument.
    Last edited by Ral; 07-23-2016 at 11:06 AM.

  4. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,213
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    I will explain.
    Take for example a savage tribe of the Amazon, which lives by primitive system already 5000 years and the Soviet Union, created in 1922.
    The Soviet Union had nuclear and space industry and lasted 69 years. The tribe is still intact. What does this mean? Primitive society wins? No. Ussr collapsed under the weight of its own inefficiency (political, economic), and not because of the space industry. Byzantine Empire collapsed under the weight of its own inefficiency, and an abstract "high culture" did not matter. Byzantium was decrepit ineffective theocracy before death. Seljuks were only a catalyst but not the cause of the fall of the empire.
    Why are these arguments? They are indirectly related to the theory of invasion to India and the concept, according to which, elite domination of barbarians can fundamentally change the linguistic picture. This seemingly illogical concept is not supported by empirical observations and examples.

    I don’t know how match originally Turkic-speaking population were in Ottoman Empire at start , but I think it can be 40-50%. And then model the "melting pot" was launched where multimillion migration during hundreds of years to Ottoman Empire led to the erosion of the titular nation with a stable language situation. But it is the «melting pot» model, not a model "elite dominance". So purely speculative concept "elite domination of the barbarians" is not confirmed by empirical examples and should not be used as an argument.
    Ral, the invasions of the Turkics could not *possibly* have been 40-50%??? Note that the Seljuk Turks were a steppe people that imposed themselves as a tribal confederation over Iran while retaining their original way of life as best as possible, in fact the court was basically a travelling yurt, so the actual number of Turks was always very small; the locals staffing the state bureaucracy spoke Persian, as did the average inhabitant of their empire, which makes the preservation of the Turkic language and its imposition over Anatolia all the more remarkable. Though the preservation of a Turkic 'parallel society' based on steppic forms, and its tight internal cohesion across space and time, lessens our surprise.

    I don't know where you're getting you empirical examples from, and your example is not applicable. The analogous situation is if the Amazonian tribe was somehow in competition with the USSR and managed to take it over.

    The unending chain of such 'mystifying' events in the history of the Middle East and North Africa was what prompted Khaldun to think about the issues, such as social cohesion and the willingness of the average member to sacrifice continually for the community, in the medieval period, and got him to--in effect--found sociology as a discipline in the first place.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 07-23-2016 at 11:24 AM.

  5. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Ryukendo For This Useful Post:

     Awale (07-24-2016),  evon (07-23-2016),  Exosuits (09-22-2016),  kikkk (07-23-2016),  lgmayka (07-23-2016),  Megalophias (07-23-2016),  Michał (07-23-2016),  XooR (07-24-2016)

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    387
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Ral, the invasions of the Turkics could not *possibly* have been 40-50%??? Note that the Seljuk Turks were a steppe people that imposed themselves as a tribal confederation over Iran while retaining their original way of life as best as possible, in fact the court was basically a travelling yurt, so the actual number of Turks was always very small;
    Give specific numbers,please. Everyone says:"very little", but no concrete results in figures.
    For example:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...anian_Turks%22
    other:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran
    At the beginning of the 20th century, Iran had a total population of just below 10 million, with an approximate ethnic composition of: 6 million Persians (60%), 2.5 million Azeris (25%), 0.2 million Mazandaranis and Gilakis each (2% each).

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Ral For This Useful Post:

     Leper (08-20-2016)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    387
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I don't know where you're getting you empirical examples from, and your example is not applicable. The analogous situation is if the Amazonian tribe was somehow in competition with the USSR and managed to take it over.
    It does not matter. It could be the Arab invasion. Just Turks were close and only "helped" to fall.

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,370
    Sex
    Location
    Western Norway
    Ethnicity
    Norwegian
    Nationality
    Norwegian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FT71931
    mtDNA (M)
    U5b1b1(T16192C)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    H13a1a

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Ral, the invasions of the Turkics could not *possibly* have been 40-50%??? Note that the Seljuk Turks were a steppe people that imposed themselves as a tribal confederation over Iran while retaining their original way of life as best as possible, in fact the court was basically a travelling yurt, so the actual number of Turks was always very small; the locals staffing the state bureaucracy spoke Persian, as did the average inhabitant of their empire, which makes the preservation of the Turkic language and its imposition over Anatolia all the more remarkable. Though the preservation of a Turkic 'parallel society' based on steppic forms, and its tight internal cohesion across space and time, lessens our surprise.
    I can chime in here and say that this is the case for most if not all Steppe conquests of sedentary cultures, such as China, India, Iran etc.. Taken from memory I think that it was during the Northern Wei rule of northern China that the Chinese adviser to the Wei court, argued against moving the capital of the Wei from the Steppe fringe into the Chinese heartland, because that would make it obvious how few "the Wei" were in comparison to their Chinese subjects and cause the Chinese to rebel. Furthermore, I think it was Christopher Beckwith who estimated that the whole of the Mongol horde was around 700 000, that included women and children, which I think sums it up pretty well... The reason for this is of course because the steppe economy could not support a large population, while sedentary peoples exploited their land more efficiently and so had larger numbers.

    I think we can also further this argument to other fringe peoples such as the Viking raiders, who were few in number compared to the peoples of Europe...

    One major advantage these groups generally had in warfare and social power, was that they tended to have less social stratification and less rules and regulations on life, which resulted in them being more well fed and thus being larger than their sedentary counterparts (Which enhanced their social power and level of influence), a subject that is discussed in the article I posted on Iran a few pages back...

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to evon For This Useful Post:

     dp (07-27-2016),  kikkk (07-23-2016),  lgmayka (07-23-2016),  Michał (07-23-2016)

  11. #7
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA (M)
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    Give specific numbers,please. Everyone says:"very little", but no concrete results in figures.
    For example:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...anian_Turks%22
    other:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran
    I think it is a very useful for question- but let's stick To Anatolia - which was Tiukicized, not Iran.
    I'm not sure of absolute numbers, but it was "large ". ie it must have been at least on Par with the Byzantine war machine
    That should give us a rough idea
    Once the Ghazi- Turks piecemeal defeated the Byzantine military, it supplanted the Byzantine system with their own. So what matters is not mere absolute numbers of Plebs (sorry to be blunt), but the military machinery and how the oppositional systems are mixed, or not
    Thus I don't think we can make hard and fast rules on "elite conquest". In fact, the Turkicazation of Anatolia was nothing of an "elite" affair. It was large numbers of warriors moving in and intentionally removing a previous systems
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 07-23-2016 at 11:41 AM.

  12. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    314
    Sex
    Location
    Minsk, Belarus
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-CTS9219
    mtDNA (M)
    U4a

    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Kura Arax R1b belong to this 17000 year old branch
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L389/
    This is the same branch as Villabruna.
    This is not the same branch as Villabruna. Villabruna belongs to the R-L754 (xV88 xP297) clade. Kura Arax R1b belongs to the R-L754 > L389 > V1636 clade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    didnt Genetiker place it as R1b1a1b ? That's under M73, right ?
    That's not under M73.

    Quote Originally Posted by sciencediver View Post
    Since the discussion has shifted to R1b, there is one found in Neolithic spain, tested R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3) .

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...me-from-spain/

    Of course it isn't R1b-M269, and the genome has no Caucasus affinity, but still intriguing.
    The Iberian Els Trocs sample belongs to the R-V88>Y7777 (xV35 xY8447) branch.

  13. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to smal For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-24-2016),  Arame (07-23-2016),  Awale (07-24-2016),  Gravetto-Danubian (07-23-2016),  Joe B (07-23-2016),  lgmayka (07-23-2016),  Megalophias (07-23-2016),  MfA (07-23-2016),  Michał (07-23-2016),  RCO (07-23-2016),  vettor (07-23-2016)

  14. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    387
    Sex
    Location
    Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I think it is a very useful for question- but let's stick To Anatolia - which was Tiukicized, not Iran.
    I'm not sure of absolute numbers, but it was "large ". ie it must have been at least on Par with the Byzantine war machine
    That should give us a rough idea
    Once the Ghazi- Turks piecemeal defeated the Byzantine military, it supplanted the Byzantine system with their own. So what matters is not mere absolute numbers of Plebs (sorry to be blunt), but the military machinery and how the oppositional systems are mixed, or not
    Thus I don't think we can make hard and fast rules on "elite conquest". In fact, the Turkicazation of Anatolia was nothing of an "elite" affair. It was large numbers of warriors moving in and intentionally removing a previous systems
    I will not argue over trifles. I am satisfied with your opinion: the example with Ottoman Empire does not support the "theory of elite domination."

  15. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,344
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by Ral
    Everyone says:"very little", but no concrete results in figures
    Comparison of 51 Byzantines from Sagalassos to 53 modern Turks from Ağlasun suggests 15% input:

    http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.o...ent/3/2/150250

    http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.o...0.figures-only

    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-23-2016 at 01:16 PM. Reason: maps added

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Kristiina (07-23-2016),  Megalophias (07-23-2016),  vettor (07-23-2016)

Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 141
    Last Post: 12-23-2018, 04:18 PM
  2. [Split] Post-Islam Demographic Changes in Asia
    By Ali16 in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-20-2018, 12:14 PM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-05-2017, 07:25 AM
  4. Replies: 63
    Last Post: 07-19-2016, 02:49 AM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-13-2014, 02:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •