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Thread: Correlation of R1b with mt DNA H? autosomal DNA?

  1. #1
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    Correlation of R1b with mt DNA H? autosomal DNA?

    H mtDNA is common across much of Europe.
    "Haplogroup H is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that likely originated in Southwest Asia[1] 20,000-25,000 YBP."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_%28mtDNA%29

    A new doctoral dissertation compares mt DNA across Bell Beaker sites.
    Ancient DNA studies of human evolution" by Adliver, 2012
    http://digital.library.adelaide.edu..../1/02whole.pdf

    Maju has summarized his view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maju
    Critically Adler could research the ancient mtDNA of Bell Beaker and Únětice culture populations from several German sites, adding important information about the genetic pools of the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. She also goes over previous studies on the same area.

    The new data (table 2) can be synthesized as follows:

    Bell Beaker:
    Quedlinburg XII: 3 H-CRS (H1?), 1 J
    Rothenschirmbach: 2 H3, 1 H5
    Alberstedt: 1 H-CRS (H1?)
    Total (simplified): 7 H, 1 J
    Únětice:
    Quedlinburg VIII: 1 U5a1a, 1 U2, 1 U*, 1 H7a, 1 T1
    Quedlinburg XII: 1 U5a1a
    Quedlinburg XIV: 1 T2
    Esperstedt: 2 I*, 1 I1, 1 U5a1, 1 U5b, 1 T2b, 1 T2*, 1 W, 1 X
    Total (simplified): 4 U5, 3 I, 3 T2, 1 T1, 1 U2, 1 U*, 1 W, 1 X

    mtDNA samples, in Europe only the Portuguese Neolithic and Epipaleolithic samples by Chandler 2005 seem to be comparable in any way, suggesting that this most important European matrilineage may have expanded from Iberia in the Chalcolithic (aka Late Neolithic in some Anglosaxon literature) with either Megalithism, Bell Beaker or both.
    I personally have two immediate H mtDNA lineages, one from Ireland and one from the Czech Republic. My wife's H mtDNA lineage is from the Greek Mediterranean. I've always been frustrated by the lack of resolution in H subclades and knowledge about those subclades, but it is clearly worthy to examine how R1b and H correlate and see what that leads to.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-20-2013 at 06:40 PM.

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     Silesian (04-18-2013)

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    The complete results from Adler thesis are the following:
    LBK culture (5450 to 4775 BC): K, J, N1a, N1a, T2, T and J.
    Rössen culture (4475 to 4250 BC): H, H, H, X2, K, H5, T2, HV, T2e and N1a.
    Corded ware culture (2700 to 2000 BC): H, HV, U5a, U4, K, H, W6, U5a1, U5a, J, X, J and T2.
    Bell Beaker culture (2500 to 2050 BC): H, H, J, H, H5, H, H3 and H5.
    Unetice culture (2050 to 1800 BC): U5a1a, U2, T1, H7a, U5a1a, U, T2, U5a1a, I, U5a1, W, I1, U5b, X, T2b, T2 and I.

    So H was present in Central Europe in the Rössen culture before the Bell Beaker culture. In the Adler thesis H is 88% of mtDNA haplogroups in Bell Beaker samples, but if you take account of all the ancient mtDNA results (Melchior, 2010 and Lee, 2012), we have 16 Bell Beaker samples with the following results:
    H: 44%, U: 25%, J: 6%, K: 6%, T: 6%, W: 6% and I: 6%
    It is approximatively the same proportion as current europeans.

    I think that the conclusions of the Adler thesis are the following:
    1) genetic discontinuity between paleolithic and neolithic gene pools following neolithic migrations from Near East
    2) genetic discontinuity between neolithic and bronze age gene pools following Bell beaker migrations from Iberia
    3) genetic continuity between bronze age and current gene pools
    Last edited by Bernard; 04-17-2013 at 04:36 PM.

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     TigerMW (04-18-2013)

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    Frankly there is no correlation. H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup today all over Europe. R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe. So lots of men with Y-DNA R1b will have mtDNA H. But so will many men of other Y-DNA haplogroups. In eastern Europe, where Y-DNA R1a1a predominates, there is no lack of mtDNA H.

    As Bernard points out, H was present in Europe before Bell Beaker. More crucially, it was present in the Near Eastern Neolithic. If we discount all the claims of H in early European remains based on nothing more than no differences detected from CRS in HVI, and especially in early, poorly-conducted research with insufficient protection from contamination, it now looks as though H most probably arrived in Europe with the Neolithic. The idea that H1 and H3 spread from Iberia was shot out of the water a while ago.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-17-2013 at 04:41 PM.

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     Silesian (04-18-2013)

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    My father is Native Irish and his mtDNA was listed as H5'36, but after a Full mtDNA Genome sequencing, it is now H5k - ancestry from Co Laois for over 1,000 years AFAIK.

    My daughter from my French wife is mtDNA H - maternal ancestry from the Champagne district of France

    My children from my US wife are mtDNA H13 - maternal ancestry from Sicily - but this haplotype is very rare and out of about 2,000 shares I have, only my wife, children and other female relatives have it.

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    Jean,
    Agreed.

    On Maju's blog I also commented that:

    "Based on the Pala paper T1a1a1 is almost definitely an Indo-European mtDNA marker, and the only one I know of."

    The reason is that it is found in Tocharians, Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, East and West Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans, so extremely widely spread, but one of the only mtDNA haplogroups that encompasses all Indo-European speakers that I'm aware of. Also it's estimated TMRCA is only 7,000 yo, so fits nicely into an Indo-European scenario.

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    @ Paul

    I'm bemused. Which Pala paper? T1a1a1 has not been found in the Tarim Basin mummies. There are no Tocharian-speakers alive today, so I can't think where else you might be looking. T2a1b1 appears in remains from both Cucuteni-Tripolye and Andronovo. Were you thinking of that?

    Lots of mtDNA haplogroups are found in both Europe, the Near East and South Asia. That does not mean that they necessarily arrived 100% with Indo-European speakers. mtDNA J2 [correction - J1], for example, almost certainly arrived in South Asia with early farmers and then again with Indo-European speakers. The Indo-Europeans seem to have absorbed mtDNA from local farmers in SE Europe, as well as carrying the Mesolithic U4 and U5. U2e probably had a fairly local spread before it was dispersed with Indo-European speakers. H5 likewise may have been fairly restricted in Europe until carried far and wide by IE speakers.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-18-2013 at 09:43 AM.

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     DMXX (04-17-2013),  Marmaduke (04-17-2013),  Silesian (04-18-2013)

  11. #7
    What about the distribution of H2, H5a, H6 and H8 being associated with Indo-Europeans? Mtdna W fits with its Eastern European-Central European-Central Asian-South Asian-Iranian-Kurdish distribution.

  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    @ Paul

    I'm bemused. Which Pala paper? T1a1a1 has not been found in the Tarim Basin mummies. There are no Tocharian-speakers alive today, so I can't think where else you might be looking. T2a1b1 appears in remains from both Cucuteni-Tripolye and Andronovo. Were you thinking of that?

    Lots of mtDNA haplogroups are found in both Europe, the Near East and South Asia. That does not mean that they necessarily arrived 100% with Indo-European speakers. mtDNA J2, for example, almost certainly arrived in South Asia with early farmers and then again with Indo-European speakers. The Indo-Europeans seem to have absorbed mtDNA from local farmers in SE Europe, as well as carrying the Mesolithic U4 and U5. U2e probably had a fairly local spread before it was dispersed with Indo-European speakers. H5 likewise may have been fairly restricted in Europe until carried far and wide by IE speakers.
    J2 as far as I know is only typical of the Kalash. Most South Asians with mtdna carry mtdna J1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    J2 as far as I know is only typical of the Kalash. Most South Asians with mtdna carry mtdna J1.
    Am I getting confused between mtDNA and Y-DNA? Yes I see that I am. [Just found map of Y-DNA J2.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Frankly there is no correlation. H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup today all over Europe. R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe. So lots of men with Y-DNA R1b will have mtDNA H. But so will many men of other Y-DNA haplogroups. In eastern Europe, where Y-DNA R1a1a predominates, there is no lack of mtDNA H.

    As Bernard points out, H was present in Europe before Bell Beaker. More crucially, it was present in the Near Eastern Neolithic. If we discount all the claims of H in early European remains based on nothing more than no differences detected from CRS in HVI, and especially in early, poorly-conducted research with insufficient protection from contamination, it now looks as though H most probably arrived in Europe with the Neolithic. The idea that H1 and H3 spread from Iberia was shot out of the water a while ago.
    One of the Hungarian project admins just told me that MtDNA Hg H's Near Eastern origin is underpinned by the relative highest frequency/diversity of HV and R0 in Arabia. Are there any diversity maps drilling down into Hg H out there?

    Even if mt H was in Iberia before Beaker is there any evidence, H subclade-wise, that it also rode Bell Beaker migrations? It looks like not, but I just want to be sure.

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