Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 63

Thread: Correlation of R1b with mt DNA H? autosomal DNA?

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,798
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    I think the distribution of Y-DNA DF27 combined with mtDNA haplogroups H1 and H3 make a pretty convincing case for an early Maritime Beaker expansion out of Iberia.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. #22
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,334
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The most controversial and interesting aspect of European R1b is not really how it spread with beaker networks but more how it reached the zone where beaker networks developed. Focussing on the beaker aspect is interesting but European R1b clearly had a pre-beaker life.
    I agree. It appears to me that a fair portion of R1b has no presence whatsoever in Iberia. If the Beakers expanded out of Iberia as some contend, much of R1b apparently wasn't part of that expansion.

  3. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,292
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I agree. It appears to me that a fair portion of R1b has no presence whatsoever in Iberia. If the Beakers expanded out of Iberia as some contend, much of R1b apparently wasn't part of that expansion.
    When I look at the various Bell Beaker migration "arrow" maps it's looks like a sprawling mess of water snakes. Perhaps Portugal was just the west coast base... but an important base or early colony.

    Since we have supposedly youthful R1b quite a ways to the east you have to wonder if the male mediated gene flow was not mostly, at least initially, by water, which wouldn't leave as good an archaeological trail as Bell Beaker pots. So it might follow that the Bell Beaker movements were just one phase of the male gene flow.

    I recognize the Sea Peoples were at a much later time, but may be the Sea Peoples are just a picture of their ancestors.

    Then you have the other major cultural practice that seems to have its own cross-cultural life of its own - the metallurgy.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-23-2013 at 09:46 PM.

  4. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,798
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    The phylogenetic network diagram (Figure 1) of the Brotherton study is extremely interesting. On the left side of the diagram we have a clear representation of Early Neolithic farming variety of mrDNA H and to the right we have the Middle and Late Neolithic groups. The Middle Neolithic groups are...

    Baalberge Culture (3950-3400 BC)
    Mallory sees it more as a continuation of the TRB Culture with eastern influences and not the result of pastoralists from the steppe. It looks like the base of one of the Baalberge H samples is derived from an LBK branch.

    Salzmünde Culture (3400-3100/3025 BC)
    Salzmünde also seems to be a remnant of late TRB, but this group seems to have had strong Baden Culture influences by way of the Saale-Elbe basin.

    Trying to correlate R1b with either Baalberge or Salzmünde on such little data is tough, but the arrival of wheels and the Secondary Products Revolution in the area could have offered the spark for R1b sometime around 3500 BC. Then again, the area is very complicated and it could be that we find some early but partial R1b intermingled in these cultures as has occurred with Corded Ware skeletons where the older ones belonged to haplogroup G and possibly I or J with later results producing R1a.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  5. #25
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    My thinking is that there were waves of dairy farmers up the Danube after the initial spread of farming. The LBK seems to have petered out, rather than (as has been generally supposed) generating the Middle and Late Neolithic cultures which supplanted it. So for me the most interesting part of this study is the support for that conclusion.

    The central/northern European cultures I have included in this putative dairy farming spread are Rossen, Lengyel and TRB. The TRB appears to have spread from the Balkans, and then later acquired the complete Secondary Products Revolution from Cucuteni. So it would not surprise me to find some R1b-L23 in the TRB, presumably Z2105. But we must await ancient DNA.

  6. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,292
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    My thinking is that there were waves of dairy farmers up the Danube after the initial spread of farming. The LBK seems to have petered out, rather than (as has been generally supposed) generating the Middle and Late Neolithic cultures which supplanted it. ...
    As best as I can glean from Jean and others this is the general timeline and expansion of dairy farming through Europe, starting from the Sea of Mamara.

    6500-5000 BC - Sea of Marmara area (both sides) in Turkey
    5250-4500 BC - West coast of Black Sea/Lower Danube in Moldova & Romania - Hamangia

    5200-3400 BC - Dniester Valley in Moldova & Ukraine - Cucuteni-Tripolye
    5000-3400 BC - Austria to Poland Middle Danube/East side of Alps/Upper Elbe,Oder,VistulaLengyel

    4500-4000 BC - Germany Middle Rhine, Upper Wesser, Upper Elbe in Germany & Netherlands - Rossen
    4300-3500 BC - Northern France & Belgium - Michelsberg

    4000-2700 BC - Northern Germany, Poland & Southern Scandinavia - Funnelbeaker
    4100-3300 BC - Southern Britain
    3800-2500 BC - Atlantic/Northwestern France - Chasseen

    This seems to omit Southwestern Europe, though, right? We have a lot of R1b and mt H in this area too, albeit they may be different kinds.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 04-24-2013 at 08:34 PM.

  7. #27
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom

  8. #28
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Frankly there is no correlation. H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup today all over Europe. R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe.
    Yes, let us all please remember that R1b-L11 predominates only in western Europe. In contrast, mtDNA H has over 40% of Poles and Russians and over 30% of Lithuanians.

  9. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,292
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Yes, let us all please remember that R1b-L11 predominates only in western Europe. In contrast, mtDNA H has over 40% of Poles and Russians and over 30% of Lithuanians.
    Given the new Brotherton study and our understanding of resolution of mt H, are there any subclade of mt H that correlate with Western Europe and R1b-L11? (Regardless of being predominant or not, in other words, is there a subclade of mt H that might be a diagnostic marker in Italic, Celtic and Germanic lands?)

  10. #30
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,798
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Given the new Brotherton study and our understanding of resolution of mt H, are there any subclade of mt H that correlate with Western Europe and R1b-L11? (Regardless of being predominant or not, in other words, is there a subclade of mt H that might be a diagnostic marker in Italic, Celtic and Germanic lands?)
    Italic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic seem to be so much later developments, that I would say there is probably little to correlate with specific subclades of mt H. But, that is not to say that some versions of mt H like H3 and my own H4a1 won't be interesting to associate with movements of say DF27. I guess we'll need a better definition of the lower levels of mt H branching and many more aDNA sequences before we can really get anything concrete though.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 04-25-2013 at 12:16 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Global25 closest single population distances correlation map
    By Erikl86 in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 145
    Last Post: 09-23-2019, 03:10 PM
  2. Correlation ?
    By firemonkey in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-18-2019, 04:57 PM
  3. Replies: 26
    Last Post: 04-02-2015, 01:05 AM
  4. Replies: 57
    Last Post: 04-01-2015, 05:52 PM
  5. L513 STR analysis using RCC Correlation
    By Dave-V in forum L513
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-08-2014, 08:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •