Page 217 of 219 FirstFirst ... 117167207215216217218219 LastLast
Results 2,161 to 2,170 of 2182

Thread: DISCUSSION THREAD FOR "Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News"

  1. #2161
    Registered Users
    Posts
    327
    Sex
    Location
    lombardy
    Nationality
    italian

    Italy Portugal Order of Christ Russia Imperial Canada Quebec Spanish Empire (1506-1701) Vatican
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    This is basically what Chad was referrencing on his latest blog post

    https://populationgenomics.blog/2019...k-in-progress/
    The "western" admixture in Yamnaya IIRC more or less matches the EEF+WHG signal we found in the megalithic european culture. It was a GAC like signal ( that was the easternmost reach of this culture) that made it into Yamnaya.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to etrusco For This Useful Post:

     Net Down G5L (02-12-2019)

  3. #2162
    Registered Users
    Posts
    285
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The "western" admixture in Yamnaya IIRC more or less matches the EEF+WHG signal we found in the megalithic european culture. It was a GAC like signal ( that was the easternmost reach of this culture) that made it into Yamnaya.
    Right, but we kind of do need some caution about this though.

    The main takeaway from the Wang paper is more that GAC is plausible, that some impulse from west is needed relative for Steppe_EBA to the apparent Piedmont->Khvalynsk->EHG cline, and that pure Anatolian or WHG are both insufficient. There's I think less confidence there that it must be GAC or an MN farmer population.

    Reasons are that if you look at the standard errors on the WHG and AN proportions, they're actually quite large relative to the inferred proportions (1 / 2), and the ratios of WHG:AN are often a bit inconstant on the fits where models use EHG+CHG+WHG+AF or Eneolithic Piedmont Steppe+WHG+AF.

    Also fits on Ukraine_Eneolithic and Varna_Outlier work quite well with Eneolithic Piedmont Steppe, actually some of the best (probably some other SE Europeans they don't use might as well).

    This is kind of a general issue when the level of an admixture is quite low and the sources are relatively close together and hard to distinguish.

    So although it looks like impulses from the western steppe certainly had some impact in formation of Yamnaya/Steppe_EBA, and by extension later populations like Sintashta are more "western" autosomally than we thought (and also the autosomal dilution of early ancestry was more equal between the furthest western and eastern ends of the steppe->europe cline), actually pinning it down to a specific population would be more difficult and might need to be informed more at least for now by what is archaeologically most plausible.

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Eterne For This Useful Post:

     etrusco (02-12-2019),  ffoucart (02-12-2019),  IronHorse (02-12-2019),  Onur Dincer (02-13-2019),  parasar (02-13-2019),  Psynome (02-12-2019),  razyn (02-13-2019),  Ruderico (02-12-2019)

  5. #2163
    Registered Users
    Posts
    285
    Sex

    twitter maybe / maybe not "news":

    adna tweet of interest https://twitter.com/granex/status/1095303843116707841:



    Hard vs soft sweeps and what each is - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_sweep

    (More extreme evidence of hard sweeps in East Asians than Europeans relative to African outgroup came up in this old paper from 2009 - https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1000500. Might be partially due to more deep rooted diversity of populations in western eurasia, and then admixture events between them masking out hard sweeps in the ancient west eurasians? Although also recent neanderthal papers by Petr suggest some geneflow between southwest eurasia and africa).

  6. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Eterne For This Useful Post:

     epoch (02-13-2019),  ffoucart (02-13-2019),  Megalophias (02-13-2019),  Onur Dincer (02-13-2019),  palamede (02-13-2019),  parasar (02-13-2019),  R.Rocca (02-13-2019),  Saetro (02-13-2019)

  7. #2164
    Registered Users
    Posts
    226
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    J2a-M319

    If someone could answer this question, what differentiates WHG from EHG. Is it CHG and some Amerindian component in the latter?

  8. #2165
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    249
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    If someone could answer this question, what differentiates WHG from EHG. Is it CHG and some Amerindian component in the latter?
    Very likely more ANE and some CHG in EHG compared to WHG.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     Principe (02-13-2019),  Sorcelow (02-13-2019)

  10. #2166
    Registered Users
    Posts
    781
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Y-DNA
    J-Y15222
    mtDNA
    U5a2b5

    Italy Italy Sicily Italy Two Sicilies Vatican Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Presentation by Hannah Moots. No pictures, not allowed. Paper coming out in a couple of months, done with Pinhasi and Pritchard.
    134 genomes, spanning 12000s BP to Renaissance and enlightenment. 0.5-3.5X coverage.

    Vast majority of sampling sites concentrated in Rome and surrounds, lowlands of Latium around the Tiber River, up to Ostia, almost all restricted to Lazio. Some extend to Abruzzo, South Le Marche, none, or maybe one, in Tuscany, and on the South of Tuscany if that.

    Couple of samples from Sardinia.

    I'll give a PCA position and a ADMIXTURE description for each time period. Note that the ADMIXTURE only had Iranian, EEF, WHG, EHG and Levant_N, no CHG. Where Iran N appears, it may be a stand-in for CHG. There is something quite puzzling in the list below, mislabeling in the slides? But that doesn't explain it either.

    UPPER PALEOLITHIC
    All WHG

    NEOLITHIC
    Mostly EEF, some WHG. Some Iran_N, quite a significant quantity, as much as WHG. PCA position Between Sardinia and Maltese, east of Sardinia, closer to Sardinia than to Maltese. Very homogeneous.

    BRONZE AGE (EARLY)
    Overlaps modern-day Sardinia, Iran_N percentage declines, WHG and EEF increases
    (Note that this represents a Europeanisation of the gene pool!) Very homogeneous.

    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.
    EHG appears, Levant N Appears for the first time, sporadic and inhomogeneous distribution, Iran_N increases further.

    IMPERIAL PERIOD
    Dense cluster centroid between Greeks, Cypriots, South Italians/Sicilians, and Syrians, closest to Sicilians. Long tail stretching from central cluster to Syrians and Iraqi Jews. Couple of Northern-shifted samples overlapping N Italy, France, Spain.
    Iran_N increases further, Levant N again sporadic and inhomogeneous.

    LATE ANTIQUITY
    Tight cluster centroid in S Italy, in the same place as in the previous period. Southern tail to Middle East disappears. N Italian, Northern European and NW European outliers exist.

    AFTER
    Resemble modern central Italians.

    Lactase persistence alleles appear abruptly after 0 AD.

    Heterozygosity reaches modern level after Iron Age.

    No information given on uniparentals.
    Isotope information not available yet, no way apart from archaeological context to tell between migrants and locals.

    Represents a preliminary effort, more work coming later.

    Questions to Hannah:
    Why is Italian Neolithic different from all other European Neolithic??? Eastern shifted with Iranian ancestry since the beginning
    Ans: Dunno

    Do the movements of the different cluster centroids between each time period (N, S, S, N again) represent migratory fluxes within Italy and also from outside?
    Ans: Probably

    More sampling is needed, much more, populations much more inhomogeneous than in other archaeogenetic studies.
    Thank you so much for all this information

    Had quite a busy and crazy last couple of weeks, so I am writing my take on this information now.

    Upper Palaeolithic nothing out of the ordinary and pretty much expected, essentially kills Gioiello's theory.

    The Neolithic that Iran Neo seems a bit strange but the component was already found in Neolithic Peloponnese perhaps indicating that Italy and Greece got another strain of Farmers who possessed some Iran Neo? I personally don't think we'll see any J (unless its the Z6048 branch) or L (not common in Italy, but is also a uniparental of Iran Neo) during this period, I think in terms of Y dna it will still be the standard G2a's with other minor farmer Y's, remember that even Otzi had quite chunk of CHG in his autosomal dna, would it be possible to know if the Neolithic samples were very similar to Otzi? I wonder if the they mistakenly fit Iran Neo for CHG seeing that Otzi had it as well, this part for me is strange.

    Bronze Age its unfortunate that MBA and LBA are missing, because this could be crucial for the understanding the formation of Iron Age-Republican samples. Though the information for the EBA is quite interesting and was something that I predicted that EBA Italians would be identical to Sardinians (I even had told Sikeliot in PM's), this makes a whole lot of sense and if we want to know the uniparentals of Italians at this time the best way to check would be to look at the Yfull samples of the Francalacci Sardinian paper by looking at the TMRCA's.

    The Iron Age to Republican era is the most interesting, but unfortunately like stated before the big piece missing before can be crucial. The EHG was very likely already in Italy before Iron Age like we see in the Parma Bell Beakers, and the Northern vs Southern clustering individuals is quite fascinating as well, imo the Northern Italian like individuals will be the Italic speakers and the Southern Italian like individuals will be the pre-Italic individuals, of course context will be important and it will be very interesting to see what's happening in Northern Italy and Southern Italy during this time genetically. As for the Levant N appearance and Iran N increase this isn't shocking either as I and others have suggested for years, that post Neolithic waves of people from the Near East came to Italy and this pretty much confirms it, the question is when? This surely represents J2a, G-M406 and various E subclades (non E-V13) that are found in Italy, one interesting idea is it possible that there was a wave of people who came during the Bronze Age or early Iron Age that were higher Iran N and contained some Levant N? E-M84 has been found in MBA Armenian samples so its possible that some E made into Turkey and found its way into Italy. Or does this reflect solely Greeks and Phoenicians penetrating the Italian gene pool, with the Phoenicians its doubtful especially in Central Italy, in Western Sicily and Sardinia its a given and the South we'll have to see.

    For the Imperial period again not too shocking considering that Rome was the epicentre of the world at the time and various people lived there, those samples will be fun to look at once they are published, the extreme outliers are surely migrants/slaves.

    The Late Antiquity period itself is interesting and its cool to see that Central Italians were still like Southern Italians, it also seems that the migration period managed to push Central Italians to their modern genetic position.

    One side comment I find it cool that all samples were Lactose Intolerant before 0 AD, being that I am Lactose Intolerant myself it kind of makes me more original haha
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>?

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

  11. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Principe For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-14-2019),  Cascio (02-14-2019),  Eihwaz (02-13-2019),  Erikl86 (02-14-2019),  J Man (02-13-2019),  Judith (02-17-2019),  morganman3 (02-14-2019),  Nebuchadnezzar II (02-14-2019),  parasar (02-14-2019),  Targum (02-13-2019)

  12. #2167
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    249
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Thank you so much for all this information

    Had quite a busy and crazy last couple of weeks, so I am writing my take on this information now.

    Upper Palaeolithic nothing out of the ordinary and pretty much expected, essentially kills Gioiello's theory.

    The Neolithic that Iran Neo seems a bit strange but the component was already found in Neolithic Peloponnese perhaps indicating that Italy and Greece got another strain of Farmers who possessed some Iran Neo? I personally don't think we'll see any J (unless its the Z6048 branch) or L (not common in Italy, but is also a uniparental of Iran Neo) during this period, I think in terms of Y dna it will still be the standard G2a's with other minor farmer Y's, remember that even Otzi had quite chunk of CHG in his autosomal dna, would it be possible to know if the Neolithic samples were very similar to Otzi? I wonder if the they mistakenly fit Iran Neo for CHG seeing that Otzi had it as well, this part for me is strange.

    Bronze Age its unfortunate that MBA and LBA are missing, because this could be crucial for the understanding the formation of Iron Age-Republican samples. Though the information for the EBA is quite interesting and was something that I predicted that EBA Italians would be identical to Sardinians (I even had told Sikeliot in PM's), this makes a whole lot of sense and if we want to know the uniparentals of Italians at this time the best way to check would be to look at the Yfull samples of the Francalacci Sardinian paper by looking at the TMRCA's.

    The Iron Age to Republican era is the most interesting, but unfortunately like stated before the big piece missing before can be crucial. The EHG was very likely already in Italy before Iron Age like we see in the Parma Bell Beakers, and the Northern vs Southern clustering individuals is quite fascinating as well, imo the Northern Italian like individuals will be the Italic speakers and the Southern Italian like individuals will be the pre-Italic individuals, of course context will be important and it will be very interesting to see what's happening in Northern Italy and Southern Italy during this time genetically. As for the Levant N appearance and Iran N increase this isn't shocking either as I and others have suggested for years, that post Neolithic waves of people from the Near East came to Italy and this pretty much confirms it, the question is when? This surely represents J2a, G-M406 and various E subclades (non E-V13) that are found in Italy, one interesting idea is it possible that there was a wave of people who came during the Bronze Age or early Iron Age that were higher Iran N and contained some Levant N? E-M84 has been found in MBA Armenian samples so its possible that some E made into Turkey and found its way into Italy. Or does this reflect solely Greeks and Phoenicians penetrating the Italian gene pool, with the Phoenicians its doubtful especially in Central Italy, in Western Sicily and Sardinia its a given and the South we'll have to see.

    For the Imperial period again not too shocking considering that Rome was the epicentre of the world at the time and various people lived there, those samples will be fun to look at once they are published, the extreme outliers are surely migrants/slaves.

    The Late Antiquity period itself is interesting and its cool to see that Central Italians were still like Southern Italians, it also seems that the migration period managed to push Central Italians to their modern genetic position.

    One side comment I find it cool that all samples were Lactose Intolerant before 0 AD, being that I am Lactose Intolerant myself it kind of makes me more original haha
    Hopefully they have some early Latin samples. It would also be great to see the Y-DNA results of the various Italic peoples someday especially the Italic groups that existed in Central and Southern Italy such as the Samnites. I predict J2a, G2a, R1b, E, I2, T and maybe some J2b to have been present among the Italic tribes of Central and Southern Italy.

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     parasar (02-14-2019),  Principe (02-14-2019)

  14. #2168
    Registered Users
    Posts
    781
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Y-DNA
    J-Y15222
    mtDNA
    U5a2b5

    Italy Italy Sicily Italy Two Sicilies Vatican Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Hopefully they have some early Latin samples. It would also be great to see the Y-DNA results of the various Italic peoples someday especially the Italic groups that existed in Central and Southern Italy such as the Samnites. I predict J2a, G2a, R1b, E, I2, T and maybe some J2b to have been present among the Italic tribes of Central and Southern Italy.
    I hope so too, I think all those will be found amongst the Italic Tribes, I would say J2b as well with the CTS6190 branch, I do think R1b-U152 will be the most common amongst the Italics, followed by G, then J2 and E, I2 and T as more minor lineages.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>?

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Principe For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-14-2019),  J Man (02-14-2019)

  16. #2169
    Registered Users
    Posts
    500
    Sex
    Location
    EU
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Y-DNA
    Father N1c
    mtDNA
    I5a

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    If someone could answer this question, what differentiates WHG from EHG. Is it CHG and some Amerindian component in the latter?
    I have recently seen a comment according to which the amount of CHG in EHG is c. 20% as per Yana. Does anyone have idea of the amount of ANE in EHG?

  17. #2170
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,208

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I have recently seen a comment according to which the amount of CHG in EHG is c. 20% as per Yana. Does anyone have idea of the amount of ANE in EHG?
    It was supposed to be 3/4 initially.
    But I see this more as a continuum - as additional samples come up we will see graduated %ages.

Page 217 of 219 FirstFirst ... 117167207215216217218219 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News
    By History-of-Things in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 2407
    Last Post: Yesterday, 12:35 PM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-29-2015, 11:18 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-26-2012, 08:00 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •