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Thread: DISCUSSION THREAD FOR "Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News"

  1. #1721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    The same seems to be true for many minor lineages. As ADW mentions, R1b-V88, but also the smorgasbord of dead-end R1b's as well. H2 would be another one.
    Then when run into the opposite with I1 and E-V13, which sort of exploded out of nowhere.
    I'm sure we could run a simulation with a few parameters and see some similar results (probably be pretty easy if anyone's interested I'll try). Probably a combination of a few things...
    - huge demographic replacement in bronze age
    - elites reproducing more than lower-classes
    - repeated contraction and expansion in population over time
    - migrations involving subsets of populations (and thus subsets of diversity, less likely to include minority lineages)
    All good points. Although this idea of "elites" reproducing more than the lower classes is nonsense. The elites in any society ever were always the minority of the population hence the term "commoner" for the non elites it's self explanatory. And second I would imagine back in those primitive times there wasn't much of a class system, society had to have been more simple. I think the ones who could reproduce more were the ones who had the greatest abundance of food first and foremost. Then other factors like stronger tribal unity, protection from hostile invaders, disease or wild animals and mobility. I wonder how many people died back then from various animal attacks? Their bodies would be completely devoured no bones would remain. Maybe that's why I1 is absent from ancient Dna because the predators found their meat to be the most delicious? Hah dumb joke. Anyway there is no one simple answer obviously.
    You have more Neanderthal variants than 86% of 23andMe customers.
    However, your Neanderthal ancestry accounts for less than 4% of your overall DNA.

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  3. #1722
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    Expansions of Y-dna can have more than one cause, but the most common is because an ethnolinguistic group has gained more land.

    I1 diversifies with the Nordic Bronze Age, so a tribe with I1 migrated to Scandinavia and for some reason gained land, the tribe separated into many clans spreading everywhere. Proto-Germanics were a tribe that included I1, I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and some subclade of R1a.

    E-V13 is a similar case, it was a lineage among others in the first paleo-Balkan tribes, G-L13 has a similar age and distribution.

    I can think of haplogroup D in Japan as an example of a lineage expanding due to higher social status, Emperors of Japan and many Daimyos were D.

    Maybe E-M81 is the most extreme case of elite expansion (if it was) it must have been Masinissa, king of Numidia c.238 BC 148 BC.

    He ruled Numidia for some 54 years until dying at about the age of 90. He was vigorous, leading troops until his death and fathering some 44 sons, and a staunch ally of Rome.
    is there an example of an exclusively upper-class lineage not gaining numbers? I don't know. some claimed I2c2 in the Caucasus is connected somehow to nobility, due to comparatively many noble families belonging to this group, its frequency is 1-5%.

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  5. #1723
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Expansions of Y-dna can have more than one cause, but the most common is because an ethnolinguistic group has gained more land.

    I1 diversifies with the Nordic Bronze Age, so a tribe with I1 migrated to Scandinavia and for some reason gained land, the tribe separated into many clans spreading everywhere. Proto-Germanics were a tribe that included I1, I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and some subclade of R1a.

    E-V13 is a similar case, it was a lineage among others in the first paleo-Balkan tribes, G-L13 has a similar age and distribution.

    I can think of haplogroup D in Japan as an example of a lineage expanding due to higher social status, Emperors of Japan and many Daimyos were D.

    Maybe E-M81 is the most extreme case of elite expansion (if it was) it must have been Masinissa, king of Numidia c.238 BC – 148 BC.



    is there an example of an exclusively upper-class lineage not gaining numbers? I don't know. some claimed I2c2 in the Caucasus is connected somehow to nobility, due to comparatively many noble families belonging to this group, its frequency is 1-5%.
    Damn that's a lot of sons he must've been one helluva busy guy. I don't know I think haplogroup D in Japan predates their emperors and I believe it's the most common in the Aynu which are a minority in Japan.
    You have more Neanderthal variants than 86% of 23andMe customers.
    However, your Neanderthal ancestry accounts for less than 4% of your overall DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Yes but descendants of I have survived for a very long time and still have a strong presence in Europe. So did the Neolithic E and G2 to a lower extent but surely more common than C which has consistently popped up from Paleolithic to Bronze age. I think it was even found in Lepenski Vir and Vinča. And now there isn't even one pocket in Europe where that hg is found at least in low to moderate frequency. I guess it was just very unlucky for some reason but I'm curious what that reason is.
    I1 is linked to Germanic expansions, therefore considerably younger than the Neolithic. The expansion of E-V13 in the Balkans is also younger than the Neolithic, as is I2-M423, R-M458 in the Balkans yet all three out number R1b in very specific regions of Europe.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  9. #1725
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    almost everywhere in the world now, I'd say 80% of subclades in any region date to some expansion in the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Damn that's a lot of sons he must've been one helluva busy guy. I don't know I think haplogroup D in Japan predates their emperors and I believe it's the most common in the Aynu which are a minority in Japan.
    haplogroup D were not elite
    there were locals to east asia before O came and reduced there numbers
    to pockets in tibet and japan .


    the japanese emperors who were confirmed as D by male descendents
    is randum could have been O just luck nothing more ..
    ..

    yes e-v13 is younger but his father e-L618
    was found in 5400 bc dalmatia neolithic to the bone
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  13. #1727
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    Maciamo of Eupedia made a very good post on Japanese D:

    We found out last year that the Emperors of Japan probably belonged to haplogroup D1b1a2 based on the tests of various descendants. Another presumed descendant of the imperial family tested at Family Tree DNA and also belonged to that haplogroup, and more precisely to the D-Z1504 subclade. A Japanese article claimed that 6 million Japanese men (10% of the male population of Japan) carry the same Y-DNA lineage as the Imperial family and that they share a common ancestor about 1000 years ago.

    Many medieval emperors had illegitimate offspring (Emperor Saga alone fathered 49 children), who were bestowed the surnames Minamoto (Genji), Taira (Heike) or Tachibana, who in turn became powerful aristocratic clans of their own. The Minamoto and Taira became the ancestors of dozens of samurai clans (see below), while the Tachibana became one of the four most powerful kuge (court nobility) families in Japan's Nara and early Heian periods. A few samurai clans descend from Japanese emperors through imperial princes. This is the case of the Asakura clan.

    If this is correct, it could mean that all Japanese emperors and a great number of daimyo (feudal lords) and samurai families would have belonged to haplogroup D1b1a2, if non-paternity events did not occur.

    I have made my own research and found that the Minamoto are the patrilineal ancestors of daimyo clans such as the Akamatsu, Akechi, Amago, Ashikaga (Muromachi-era shōguns), Hatakeyama, Hosokawa, Ikeda, Imagawa, Kitabatake, Kuroda, Matsudaira, Miyoshi, Mogami, Mori, Nanbu, Nitta, Ogasawara, Ōta, Rokkaku, Sakai, Sasaki, Satake, Satomi, Shiba, Shimazu, Takeda, Toki, Tokugawa (Edo-era shōguns), and Tsuchiya. A few kuge (court aristocracy) families also descend from the Minamoto, such as the Koga.

    The Taira clan descends from four 9th-century emperors (Kanmu, Ninmyō, Montoku and Kōkō) and were the ancestors of several daimyo families such as the Ashina, Chiba, Hōjō (Kamakura-era shōguns), Miura, Sōma, and Oda (whose most famous member was Oda Nobunaga, who started the reunification of Japan during the Sengoku period).


    Only a few daimyo clans did not descend from the Y-DNA line of the Imperial family. Most, however, descend from the Fujiwara family, who intermarried with the Imperial family almost every generation during the Heian period(7941185) and therefore can be considered the same family (the maternal branch). The Fujiwara clan customarily served as regents and ministers (sadaijin and udaijin), which allowed them to dominate Japanese politics throughout the Heian period. Their descendant remained court nobles until 1945. Only a few notable samurai families descend from the Fujiwara Y-DNA line. These include the Adachi, Ashikaga (Fujiwara), Azai, Date, Gamō, Honda, Ii, Itō, Niwa, Tsugaru, Uesugi and Utsunomiya. Among them the Date and Uesugi in eastern and northern Honshu distinguished themselves during the Sengoku period. The Honda and Ii were retainers of the Matsudaira/Tokugawa clan and became powerful after Tokugawa Ieyasu established the last shogunate.

    At least three descendants from the Fujiwara clan tested their Y-DNA at Family Tree DNA and all belonged to haplogroup O1b2a1 (formerly known as O2b1a), and more specifically to O-47Z(aka CTS10674 or CTS11986). This haplogroup is found in 24% of the Japanese population. Yfull list a few deeper branches but more research is needed to determine the deep clade associated specifically with the Fujiwara.


    I could only find a handful of notable daimyo clans that didn't descend either from the Imperial lineage or from the Fujiwara lineage. The most prominent was the Mōri clan (not to be confused with the Mori clan above), who were descended from the Ōe, a court aristocratic lineage from the Heian period related by marriage to the Imperial family.

    Another one was the Abe clan, one of the oldest in Japan, said to be one of the original clans of the Yamato people. The Hata clan is equally old and was founded by Chinese immigrants with the surname Qin (秦 ; Hata being the Japanese reading of that Chinese character) during the Kofun period (250538). They became the ancestors of a number of samurai clans, such as the Akizuki, Chōsokabe, Kawakatsu and Tamura. Descendant testing at Family Tree DNA showed that that lineaged belonged to haplogroup O2a2b1a1 (formerly known as O3a2c1a), the most common lineage among Han Chinese, and specifically to the O-CTS10738 subclade found in both China and Japan.

    During the Sengoku period, there was also the Saitō clan (founded by a merchant who seized power in Mino province and became Oda Nobunaga's father-in-law) and the Toyotomi clan, founded by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Oda Nobunaga's general who gradually rose in power a peasant family. They were recent parvenus whose lineage didn't last more than a few generations.

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  15. #1728
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    almost everywhere in the world now, I'd say 80% of subclades in any region date to some expansion in the Bronze Age.
    If that statement is correct it implies that something must've changed significantly before and throughout this period of mankind.
    You have more Neanderthal variants than 86% of 23andMe customers.
    However, your Neanderthal ancestry accounts for less than 4% of your overall DNA.

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  17. #1729
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Maciamo of Eupedia made a very good post on Japanese D:

    We found out last year that the Emperors of Japan probably belonged to haplogroup D1b1a2 based on the tests of various descendants. Another presumed descendant of the imperial family tested at Family Tree DNA and also belonged to that haplogroup, and more precisely to the D-Z1504 subclade. A Japanese article claimed that 6 million Japanese men (10% of the male population of Japan) carry the same Y-DNA lineage as the Imperial family and that they share a common ancestor about 1000 years ago.

    Many medieval emperors had illegitimate offspring (Emperor Saga alone fathered 49 children), who were bestowed the surnames Minamoto (Genji), Taira (Heike) or Tachibana, who in turn became powerful aristocratic clans of their own. The Minamoto and Taira became the ancestors of dozens of samurai clans (see below), while the Tachibana became one of the four most powerful kuge (court nobility) families in Japan's Nara and early Heian periods. A few samurai clans descend from Japanese emperors through imperial princes. This is the case of the Asakura clan.

    If this is correct, it could mean that all Japanese emperors and a great number of daimyo (feudal lords) and samurai families would have belonged to haplogroup D1b1a2, if non-paternity events did not occur.

    I have made my own research and found that the Minamoto are the patrilineal ancestors of daimyo clans such as the Akamatsu, Akechi, Amago, Ashikaga (Muromachi-era shōguns), Hatakeyama, Hosokawa, Ikeda, Imagawa, Kitabatake, Kuroda, Matsudaira, Miyoshi, Mogami, Mori, Nanbu, Nitta, Ogasawara, Ōta, Rokkaku, Sakai, Sasaki, Satake, Satomi, Shiba, Shimazu, Takeda, Toki, Tokugawa (Edo-era shōguns), and Tsuchiya. A few kuge (court aristocracy) families also descend from the Minamoto, such as the Koga.

    The Taira clan descends from four 9th-century emperors (Kanmu, Ninmyō, Montoku and Kōkō) and were the ancestors of several daimyo families such as the Ashina, Chiba, Hōjō (Kamakura-era shōguns), Miura, Sōma, and Oda (whose most famous member was Oda Nobunaga, who started the reunification of Japan during the Sengoku period).


    Only a few daimyo clans did not descend from the Y-DNA line of the Imperial family. Most, however, descend from the Fujiwara family, who intermarried with the Imperial family almost every generation during the Heian period(794–1185) and therefore can be considered the same family (the maternal branch). The Fujiwara clan customarily served as regents and ministers (sadaijin and udaijin), which allowed them to dominate Japanese politics throughout the Heian period. Their descendant remained court nobles until 1945. Only a few notable samurai families descend from the Fujiwara Y-DNA line. These include the Adachi, Ashikaga (Fujiwara), Azai, Date, Gamō, Honda, Ii, Itō, Niwa, Tsugaru, Uesugi and Utsunomiya. Among them the Date and Uesugi in eastern and northern Honshu distinguished themselves during the Sengoku period. The Honda and Ii were retainers of the Matsudaira/Tokugawa clan and became powerful after Tokugawa Ieyasu established the last shogunate.

    At least three descendants from the Fujiwara clan tested their Y-DNA at Family Tree DNA and all belonged to haplogroup O1b2a1 (formerly known as O2b1a), and more specifically to O-47Z(aka CTS10674 or CTS11986). This haplogroup is found in 24% of the Japanese population. Yfull list a few deeper branches but more research is needed to determine the deep clade associated specifically with the Fujiwara.


    I could only find a handful of notable daimyo clans that didn't descend either from the Imperial lineage or from the Fujiwara lineage. The most prominent was the Mōri clan (not to be confused with the Mori clan above), who were descended from the Ōe, a court aristocratic lineage from the Heian period related by marriage to the Imperial family.

    Another one was the Abe clan, one of the oldest in Japan, said to be one of the original clans of the Yamato people. The Hata clan is equally old and was founded by Chinese immigrants with the surname Qin (秦 ; Hata being the Japanese reading of that Chinese character) during the Kofun period (250–538). They became the ancestors of a number of samurai clans, such as the Akizuki, Chōsokabe, Kawakatsu and Tamura. Descendant testing at Family Tree DNA showed that that lineaged belonged to haplogroup O2a2b1a1 (formerly known as O3a2c1a), the most common lineage among Han Chinese, and specifically to the O-CTS10738 subclade found in both China and Japan.

    During the Sengoku period, there was also the Saitō clan (founded by a merchant who seized power in Mino province and became Oda Nobunaga's father-in-law) and the Toyotomi clan, founded by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Oda Nobunaga's general who gradually rose in power a peasant family. They were recent parvenus whose lineage didn't last more than a few generations.
    https://famousdna.wiki.fc2.com/wiki/...B3%BB%E7%B5%B1
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  18. #1730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    If that statement is correct it implies that something must've changed significantly before and throughout this period of mankind.
    World War 0 huh

    There are lineages I feel that were of the old order, a previous age, C1a2 and H2 for example.

    even lineages that we say were Neolithic or Mesolithic like G2 or I, most of what exists today, dates at least to the Early Bronze Age, after some kind of a bottleneck.

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