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Thread: DISCUSSION THREAD FOR "Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News"

  1. #1841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Like Erik said, I am talking about Italian Jews here. While Italians from the Mezzogiorno (as well as many Aegean Greeks) are often closer to individual Western Jewish groups than they are to each other from an autosomal standpoint (since they all fall within the Eastern Mediterranean continuum), there is no avoiding the fact that Western Jews are basically a single population if we also take the uniparental, IBD and medical data into account.

    NB: One cannot overstate how diverse Italians are, for instance both my father and I cluster in distinct parts of Italy (despite not having any recent Italian ancestry). My father is quite close to Sicilians from Caltanissetta, Agrigento and Messina (as well as to Cretan Greeks) while I am close to NE Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Trentino (that includes several of vettor's family members). So it's hard to put all Italians in the same category when making such statements.
    These affinities, can they be tied to the spread of Y-DNA J? It occurs to me that the Old Testament places the origin of Abraham in what used to be Hurrian lands and we know that Kura-Araxes extended to Canaan in its expansions. No idea if this will fly, by the way.

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  3. #1842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Like Erik said, I am talking about Italian Jews here. While Italians from the Mezzogiorno (as well as many Aegean Greeks) are often closer to individual Western Jewish groups than they are to each other from an autosomal standpoint (since they all fall within the Eastern Mediterranean continuum), there is no avoiding the fact that Western Jews are basically a single population if we also take the uniparental, IBD and medical data into account.

    NB: One cannot overstate how diverse Italians are, for instance both my father and I cluster in distinct parts of Italy (despite not having any recent Italian ancestry). My father is quite close to Sicilians from Caltanissetta, Agrigento and Messina (as well as to Cretan Greeks) while I am close to NE Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Trentino (that includes several of vettor's family members). So it's hard to put all Italians in the same category when making such statements.
    Are you Sephardic Jew ?

    NE Italy from east Lombardy to Dalmatia was governed by the Venetian republic from anytime from 900ad to 1797.....the Jews in bulk arrived circa 1500 in Venice from Valencia Spain escaping the Spanish Inquisition of 1482.
    They where placed on an island in the middle of Venice name Geto (a foundry in Venetian language after the word Getar, meaning "to pour" )......it was a foundry from 1200 to 1450, then it was moved to the arsenale and geto island was abandoned. The Jews settled there circa 1490 and renamed it Ghetto........many of these Jews left Venice with the German merchants to Bavaria or moved to Ferrara.......food for thought

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  5. #1843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Like Erik said, I am talking about Italian Jews here. While Italians from the Mezzogiorno (as well as many Aegean Greeks) are often closer to individual Western Jewish groups than they are to each other from an autosomal standpoint (since they all fall within the Eastern Mediterranean continuum), there is no avoiding the fact that Western Jews are basically a single population if we also take the uniparental, IBD and medical data into account.

    NB: One cannot overstate how diverse Italians are, for instance both my father and I cluster in distinct parts of Italy (despite not having any recent Italian ancestry). My father is quite close to Sicilians from Caltanissetta, Agrigento and Messina (as well as to Cretan Greeks) while I am close to NE Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Trentino (that includes several of vettor's family members). So it's hard to put all Italians in the same category when making such statements.
    Most diverse in Europe per the Ralph & Coop paper.
    "very few genetic common ancestors that Italians share both with each other and with other Europeans ... suggests significant old substructure and large population sizes within Italy"
    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1001555

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  7. #1844
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Beautiful, these are the kinds of questions ancient DNA can answer.

    Its a widely held belief that the Khazars are related to Ashkenazim, I used to believe that before I became interested in population genetics, there are many arguments against the Khazar theory. Anyway, some people will still dismiss this finding as a Jewish conspiracy

    How did the Khazars adopt Judaism? what about the claims that Jewish people actually migrated to the Steppe from Islamic lands and Byzantium to join the Khazars? maybe there is additional Near Eastern admixture in the Khazars after their conversion to Judaism?
    It is well known that Babylonian-descended Jews were living in the Khazar Kingdom prior to the conversion of some Khazars to Rabbinic Judaism, however widespread or limited it may have been. Here is a link to a good overview:

    http://www.khazaria.com/brook.html

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  9. #1845
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    These affinities, can they be tied to the spread of Y-DNA J? It occurs to me that the Old Testament places the origin of Abraham in what used to be Hurrian lands and we know that Kura-Araxes extended to Canaan in its expansions. No idea if this will fly, by the way.
    This is much more complex than the spread of a Y-DNA marker. The Abrahamic narrative is tied to areas associated with the Amorite kingdoms of ancient Syria (located in what is now Upper Mesopotamia and the Jazire region of Syria), there is a difference in toponyms in the Levant between the coastline and the highlands of historical Judea-Samaria where the toponyms follow a pattern typical of those found in the Amorite areas. This tradition of descent from a man named Abraham might have its origins in a group that arrived in the highlands from the north during the MBA IIA-B transition (which is linked to the appearance of Amorite-like toponyms in the highlands).

    I often see people bringing up the Hurrians or K-A. While it definitely is true that both had a demographic impact in the Levant, the former arriving with the Mitanni and the latter clearly yielding the intrusive KKW (Khirbet Kerak Ware) assemblage, it would be very surprising if this can account for the introduction of all J lineages in the Levant. There are at least two lineages (J1-L862 and J2b1-M205) that are bound to have predated K-A in that part of the world and if you ask me I'd wager their presence goes back to the initial spread of Iran_ChL-type ancestry in the region. I suspect many are overestimating the impact the Hurrians and K-A had in the BA Levant, both have become a potpourri of sorts where lineages with complex histories are conveniently lumped together, first off it must be kept in mind that we are dealing with intrusive minorities that ended up being assimilated in a very short time span with few elements of Hurrian culture surviving until the last stages of the LBA (there are some exceptions to this), if anything the lineages that showed up in the K-A samples from Wang et al. are just as likely to show up among the Hurrians or in the Khirbet Kerak culture.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-09-2019 at 06:14 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #1846
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    My mother's 1st-2nd cousin is descended from a Jewish man who belongs to R1a-CTS6 (as per 23andMe) and someone who I believe to be my great-Aunt.(very much English ancestry from my pedigree via England) The interesting thing is after 2 generations of English mixing, I've confirmed his mother was also Canadian of British extract, he is only about 5% Ashkenazi, 4% Balkan, and 13% Eastern European. Since his maternal side is solidly of a single western ancestry, as well as my great-Aunt, it's interesting that I can see what the composition of his paternal grandfather might have been after arriving in Canada from Eastern Europe. R1a-CTS6 certainly doesn't look like it arrived from the Middle East from his sample at least. There is also Native American 0.1% and Broadly EA/Native 0.1% as well as Broadly European 2.6% that don't appear to be from the English/British side. In comparison my Broadly European is only 0.3%.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 01-09-2019 at 09:43 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  13. #1847
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    Japanese scientists are slowly studying Jomon genetics: https://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/images/Documents/lila

    Ancient DNA analysis of Initial Jomon skeletons and bioarchaeological research in the Iyai Project

    Yasuhiro Taniguchi

    Kokugakuin University

    The Iyai rockshelter site, located at 36°33'28" north latitude, 138°38'50" east longitude, in the northwest Kanto region of the Japanese main Island Honshu, lies in a mountainous region near the Joshinetsu mountains. This site is situated at an elevation of approximately 649 m. Among the multiple layers of cultural deposits from Jomon to Yayoi periods, the largest number of finds in the Initial Jomon period is unearthed from this site.

    Excavations undertaken from 2014 to 2018 aimed to explore the origins of the human populations of the Jomon period and Jomon culture. In a thick layer of midden deposits dating back to the middle stage of the Initial Jomon (ca.9,000 - 10,000 cal BP), numerous organic materials including animal bones and plant seeds were excavated. Bioarchaeological analysis is now proceeding in collaboration with specialists in various fields: physical anthropology, zoology, botany, AMS dating and ancient DNA analysis.

    The remains of approximately twenty buried human skeletons have been recovered to date. C14 dating has indicated that almost all the burials belonged to the end of the Initial Jomon phase (ca. 8300 cal BP). Of particular interest were specimens, some contracted burials, where the skeletal remains showed that the body was artificially cut off at the pelvis, showing traces of disturbance of the normal anatomical position.

    The skeletal remains from the Iyai site showed a good state of preservation. The nucleotide sequence of the whole mtDNA genome (~ 17 kbp) from the No.1 skeleton was successfully determined, which it revealed to be a new haplotype that are belonged to the N9b haplogroup. Further analyses of both mtDNA and nuclear DNA are planned and will make clear the origins of Jomon people and their genealogical position in the near future.
    Last edited by rozenfeld; 01-12-2019 at 12:20 AM.

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    Nice. So I suppose following the silly Transeurasian conference we’ll at least get some other Jomon-related business to support this, and a few of the Hongshan and I hope Yangshao too?
    My 23andMe kit into Eurogenes K36 then oracle (thanks to lukaszM):

    nMonte restricted: Ireland 48.05, SW-England 20.95, Finnish East 20.05, Russian Tver 3.70, Latvian 3.15, Mari 1.90, Lithuanian 1.30, French Basque 0.90, Orcadian 0.00

    nMonte full: Ireland 45.70, Finnish East 20.05, SW-England 20.05, Russian Tver 4.10, Orcadian 3.05, Latvian 2.45, Mari 1.95, Lithuanian 1.45, French Basque 1.00, W-England 0.15, Belarusian East 0.05

    Maternal uncle: R1b-U152

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  17. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Nice. So I suppose following the silly Transeurasian conference we’ll at least get some other Jomon-related business to support this, and a few of the Hongshan and I hope Yangshao too?
    Actually, I decided to check Transeurasian conference website, they seem to add more abstracts. At least there are couple of ones which are interesting and I don't recall seeing before:

    http://robbeets.wixsite.com/transeurasian2019/program

    Dairying on the eastern fringes of the Eastern Eurasian Steppe

    Christina Warinner, Jessica Hendy, Linyuan Fan, Zandra Fagernäs, Yinqiu Cui, and Martine Robbeets

    Recent research (Jeong et al. in review) shows that ruminant dairy pastoralism was established on the Eastern Eurasian steppe by the mid-second millennium BCE. These Late Bronze Age dairy pastoralists exhibit only minimal genetic exchange with outside groups, suggesting that dairying was adopted by local populations through cultural transmission rather than through population replacement. The Eastern steppe was subsequently home to the Xiongnu (ca. 200 BCE to 100 CE), who are commonly associated with linguistic elements of proto-Turkic and the historical Mongols (ca. 1200-1400 CE), descendants of speakers of proto-Mongolic, both originally expanding from its eastern fringes. Whereas the ultimate homeland of the proto-Mongolic language is situated in the West Liao River Basin and that of proto-Turkic in present-day eastern Inner Mongolia and Shanxi, their most recent common linguistic ancestor, Proto-Turko-Mongolic, can be traced back to the West Liao River Basin, ca. 1550 BC (Robbeets et al. in press). In our presentation we will align the linguistic and the archaeogenetic evidence for dairying on the eastern fringes of the Eastern Eurasian Steppe, as far east as the West Liao River Basin and as early as the second millennium BC. To this end, we will combine molecular evidence for milk consumption and linguistic reconstruction of dairying vocabulary such as verbs for 'to milk' in Proto-Turko-Mongolic.


    Relationship between Japanese and Transeurasian from genetics and linguistics

    Hideaki Kanzawa-Kiriyama
    Shinjiro Kazama

    Transeurasian includes Japonic. However, genetic similarity bet
    ween Japanese and other populations speaking Transeurasian languages have not been reported, and Japanese are genetically closest to Korean and Han Chinese. Here, we sequenced nuclear genome of 2,000-year-old Yayoi rice farmer from Northern Kyushu, who were immigrant post-Jomon population, to investigate the ancestry of the Yayoi immigrants. Comparison with modern Eurasians suggests that the Yayoi immigrant was genetically more or less the same with modern mainland Japanese, and Korean was second closest. Similarity with Transeurasian populations were not observed in this study. From the viewpoint of comparative linguistics, there are also no absolute proofs to establish genetic relations among Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Korean and Japanese languages. The hypothesis of Transeurasian by M. Robbeets is very ambitious but there are many issues left unsolved. Some controversial problems of the correspondences referred by her are already pointed out by some scholars. Here, we reveal further important problems of the correspondences. Whereas, it is true that there is a great typological similarity among the languages mentioned above. However, most of the features are very common in the languages of the world. Therefore, it is necessary to demonstrate more unique typological features. In this presentation we demonstrate such features.

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  19. #1850
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    R1a-CTS6 certainly doesn't look like it arrived from the Middle East from his sample at least.
    Why not? There are definitely Middle Eastern branches of R1a-CTS6, like Y37891 or CTS7297. I do not think it is worth guessing, it is always possible to learn the final subclade and go to the corresponding project to understand where did it come from.

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