Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

[CopperAxe]

This is not true, that they had so much more influence, because the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was far more important than the Scythian raids from the cultural perspective, since this steppe-Caucasian influence initiated the Early Iron Age and the Basarabi phenomenon in the Carpatho-Balkans and from there Early Hallstatt.

Also, they lived in Mezocsat and these Mezocsat Thraco-Cimmerians did develop fairly smoothly into Vekerzug under Scythian influence. How many Scythian samples with N and that much Caucasian shifted do we have? It will really depend on their steppe : Caucasian : East Asian ratio as to whether they are close to Cimmerians or Scythians. The Cimmerians had, usually, more Caucasian and East Asian admixture than the Scythians and Sarmatians, they were generally less homogeneous.

We have like four actual Cimmerian samples, and they look like fresh arrivals from the Altai and some are mixed with bronze age steppe peoples. The sample you are referring to from Hungary is obviously mixed with western populations, and according to the burial context was a baby buried with the local population.

Furthermore actual Cimmerians didn't even go that far west, those were the Agathyrsi or another unattested nomadic faction. Cimmerians migrated south of the Caucasus and after their epoch there they ended up as a non-factor, defeated and what was left assimilated into the Scythian populations. By the time of these samples Cimmerians only appear as inspirations for topo/hydronyms.

This map isn't perfect but shows the situation:



Ironically Scythian sample MJ15 is more likely to have north Caucasian ancestry than any actual Cimmerian period sample, of which MK001 is most likely to actually be a Cimmerian.

Target: RUS_Marinskaya_IA:MK3001
Distance: 2.7277% / 0.02727663
48.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
34.4 MNG_North_N
7.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
6.0 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
3.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

And Cimmerians and Scythians obviously descend from the same population, their presence in the Near East cannot even be distinguished from one another because their material culture is identical. If a Cimmerian sample has N, so will Scythians. Several N clades from WSHG, Siberian/Mongolian pastoralists as well as clades as N-P43 were part of the paternal lineage ensemble of Scytho-Siberians.

[Karagjoz]

Mycenaeans + Empuries + Kastrouli_Anc (Archaic Greece) + New samples from Sicily + Marathon_Rom (this one doesn't have the BA Greek profile though)

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2		I8208		J-Z1846 	J2a
GRC_Mycenaean				I9041		J-Z6057		J2a
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA			I16709		J-Y14434	J2a
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA		I13577		G-Z7016		G2a
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA		I13579		J-Y14434	J2a
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA	I13517_d	G-Z6494		G2a
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA	I13518		R-PF7563	R1b
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA	I19364		R-M269		R1b
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc			I17962		T-S27463	T1a
GRC_Marathon_Rom			I7833		T-CTS3767	T1a
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I10945		J-Y151557*	J2a
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7217		L-L595*		L2
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I10948		R-Y13200*	R1b
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7218		T-S27463*	T1a
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I10952		J-Z7706*	J2a
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7221		G-Z42565*	G2a
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7219		G-PF3346*	G2a
Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I7224		T-S27463*	T1a
Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I7225		R-L2*		R1b
Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I7223		J-FGC45722*	J2a
Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I17866		J-Z35779	J2a
Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I17884		L-L595		L2

I dont think all those himera results were ancient greeks, looks like they had a lot of mercenaries with them

[Alkaevli]

I dont think all those himera results were ancient greeks, looks like they had a lot of mercenaries with them

Those with non-Greek profiles are not included. Mercenaries with Baltic, Steppe and Caucasian profiles can easily be told apart from Greeks. Thracians (if there are any) might overlap with Greeks though.

[Riverman]

Furthermore actual Cimmerians didn't even go that far west, those were the Agathyrsi or another unattested nomadic faction. Cimmerians migrated south of the Caucasus and after their epoch there they ended up as a non-factor, defeated and what was left assimilated into the Scythian populations. By the time of these samples Cimmerians only appear as inspirations for topo/hydronyms.

The Agathyrsi appear to be a later formation under renewed Scythian influence on top of the Thraco-Cimmerian Mezocsat group. Even if the individual was mixed, as you state, he had a clearly Cimmerian profile, completely foreign to the Carpathian basin, he sticks out in this group of rather Late Gáva locals, and clearly in the direction of "typical Cimmerians". So we can say he was of actual Cimmerian descend.
While the bulk of the Cimmerians didn't move into Central Europe, some Cimmerian splinters definitely did, we see them in the record and they destroyed the Gáva fortress belt in the central region - they couldn't destroy the Northern one, which allowed Late Gáva to survive especially in Transcarpathia, from which later some Dacian groups might have emerged.

But we see the actual destruction caused by the incoming Cimmerians and the individual in question proves their biological presence, as small or big as it might have been. Both Gáva and Lusatians did suffer under the Cimmerian raids, this is absolutely evident in the archaeological record.

At a turning-point of the Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age mass items of eastern
origin appeared in the area of central Europe. There were jewellery, elements of horse
harness and military items. Presence of these objects was observed in the area of Poland,
Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Italy as well as eastern France.
To the earliest forms, characteristic for the classical phase of the Cimmerian culture,
belong arrowheads. Relatively small number of these arrowheads found in central Europe is
difficult to interpret. They are connected with the Chernogorovka and the Novocherkassk
complex1
dated from 1007 to 815 BC and from 997 to 805 BC2
. Their presence in the
Carpathian Basin can be a result of the infiltration of Cimmerian groups in Period Hallstatt B2,
dislodged by the Scythian societies from the origin steppes3
. Herodotus in his ethnographic
treatise wrote: It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the
Massaget’, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes (Volga),
and entered the land of Cimmeria. For the land which is now inhabited by the Scyths was
formerly the country of the Cimmerians4
.
The distribution of the early types of so-called Cimmerian objects can be related to the
first stage of the nomadic influences. In the Middle Danube Urnfield culture these influences
are visible in the new east European grave form, underlining social status through so-called
princes’ graves. In the northern part of the Great Hungarian Plain the impact of the nomadic
people can be seen in a new type of inhumation grave, containing arms and elements of horsegear. Probably these contacts took form of commercial and symbolic trade, partially
accompanied by limited military raids penetrating to the north, as far as the centre of the
Lusatian Urnfield culture.

Second stage of the Cimmerians influences was in Period Hallstatt B3. In the
archaeological record this event is represented by the collapse of the Gáva-Holihrady complex5
and the development of the Mezöcsát culture which was a result of integration of the local
population with small groups of newcomers6
. Through the Mezöcsát culture, the Cimmerian
systems began to influence other regions of central Europe, mainly through commercial trade
mixed with elements of the prestige-goods exchange, probably by rare military raids, too.
Result of these penetrations may be the presence Cimmerian type objects in the northern part
of central Europe but also occurrence of the idea to build fortified settlements.

The Scythian influence came only later, we have a pretty precise data for it:

In the Period Hallstatt C, the contact of the Cimmerian groups with other regions had
been cultural character. Their influences can be found in the East-Hallstatt cultural groups,
which were located between the rapidly developing Etruscan culture and the Greek colonies in
the south, and the rich resources of the barbarian Europe to the north. At this time, societies of
the East-Hallstatt zone began to play a major role in the exchange and interregional contact in
central Europe. The nomadic influences on Early Iron Age cultures can be seen in the
increasing role of horse, horse riding and wagons7.

The appearance of the Scythian type arrowheads in this time is explained mainly as an
invasion of the Scythian groups on the central European territory8
. Herodotus wrote that9
…The enemy no sooner heard, than they quickly joined all their troops in one, and both
portions of the Scythian army – alike that which consisted of a single division, and that made
up of two accompanied by all their allies, the Sauromatae, the Budini, and the Geloni, set off
in pursuit, and made straight for the Ister... Based on this unclear fragment, some scholars10
interpreted these arrowheads like a proofs of the Scythian groups’ raids in Carpathian Basin.
This situation could be a place exactly about 513-512 BC, after unsuccessful Darius’ expedition
on Saka people11
.

So the Scythians pressed on to the West, where still Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerian people lived, shortly before the finds from Himera. This opens up all kind of possibilities were the mercenaries might have coming from, including remains or even fleeing Thraco-Cimmerians.

It doesn't change the principle whether they were Cimmerians or Scythians, because both had a base of Thracians among them, as the regional substrate:

The position of the middlemen in contacts between the Scythians and communities
from central Europe was held by local populations of the so-called Thracian Hallstatt, from the
area between the Pruth and the Dnestr Rivers. The two cultural groups from Transylvania and
Alföld related strongly to the Scythian traditions. In the area of these groups graves of the
Scythian tradition were identified. All pottery from the sites belonging to this cultural group
was made in the local tradition deriving from the late phase of the Gáva culture13, bronze and
iron products, from the basin of the Mureş River, provide clear evidence of intensive contacts
between local populations and the Scythian culture14.

The scale and character of these contacts
were different from those between the Scythian culture and the forest-steppe area of Moldavia.
The local populations of Moldavia had more regular and longer-lasting contacts with the nomadic world, but the effects of these contacts were never as significant as they were in the
area of the Carpathian Basin. Many central and east European scholars15 interpreted this
phenomenon in the terms of changes in population and tried to correlate the cultural changes in
Transylvania with the ethnic expansion of the Scythians tribe called the Agathyrsae16. There is,
however, not enough evidence to support this interpretation, but interpretations of the ancient
written sources correctly located the Agathyrsae in Transylvania. Harmatta17 joined cultural
groups in the Great Hungarian Plain from the VIth-Vth centuries BC, with historical tribes called
the Sigynnae18
.
In the two centuries preceding the period of the Scythian influences, the area of the
Carpathian Basin experienced a period of significant cultural change. The old Urnfield
traditions and intensive contacts with the Cimmerian tribes helped to develop the East
Hallstatt culture, which formed an important economic and cultural component in central
Europe. The Mezöcsát culture, which appeared in the Carpathian Basin as a result of the early
nomadic influences in the VIIIth-VIIth century BC, established close contacts with the East
Hallstatt culture. These horizons are represented by rich groups of findings that represent the
mixture of the Cimmerian, Scythian, and Hallstatt traditions. Early Scythian influences led not
only to the development of the Vekerzug culture, but also to the occurrence in north-eastern
Slovakia and western Ukraine of the Kuštanovice group19
.

Kuštanovice = being considered Proto-Dacians by many scholars.

If the barrows discovered in the area of the Vekerzug culture suggest close contacts
between the local population and the nomadic tribes from eastern Europe, then the dominance
of cremation in cemeteries in the north-eastern region of the Vekerzug culture20 and in the
Kuštanovice group21 indicates the possibility of strong cultural and economic relations
between these groups and local versions of the Scythian culture in the forest-steppe zone22
.
Direct contacts through the Carpathian Mountains have probably developed as a northern axis
of the long distance system of exchange which linked central Europe with the east European
steppes (Map 1).
At the same time, in the Little Hungarian Plain and in south-western Slovakia were
incorporated into the systems of exchange and intercultural contact. In the archaeological
record, this process is expressed through the emergence of cemeteries characteristic for the
southern region of the Vekerzug culture. The largest and the most important of them are those
discovered in Chotín (I-A and I-23. The Scythian type material found in the graves, in both
of the cemeteries at Chotín, include bronze arrowheads, horse bits and another items of
Vekerzug type.

From Chotin we have an E-V13 with a more Carpatho-Balkan-like profile too!

https://www.academia.edu/6176834/The..._millennium_BC

On the Agathyrsi from the historical perspective:

After being expelled westwards from the steppe, the Agathyrsi settled in the territories of present-day Moldavia, Transylvania, and possibly Oltenia, where they mingled with the indigenous population who were largely Thracians.[2][7] In the 5th century BC, Herodotus mentioned the presence of the Agathyrsi in the area of present-day Moldavia, to the north of the Danube and the east of the Carpathian Mountains, by which time they had become acculturated to the local Getic populations[7] and they practised the same customs as the Thracians, although the names of their kings, such as Agathyrsus and Spargapeithes, were Iranian.[2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathyrsi

[rozenfeld]

Would it make sense to make a separate thread about Himera paper?

[Alain]

what do you think ( CopperAxe Riverman …) the Mezocsat Probe IA and Hallstatt Bylany_DA112(Celtic boys with a slight Asian touch) could be related to Agathyrsi, Scythian or Cimmerian it has a slight East Asian admixture ?

Agathyrsi probably of strongly mixed ethnic origin with Dacians/Getae , but at the beginning there could also have been several competing nomadic groups Cimmerians, Scythians, Agathyrsi all originating from the Altai region following different paths are the Cimmerians were displaced by the Scythians and assimilated and partly pushed into other areas and drove the Agathyrsi further west from the Scythians and interacted and mixed more with the local population.

[Avraam Kyriakidis]

So far more L than E-V13 in ancient Greeks. Who would have thought some years ago...
But I still think this will change with the more Thracian influences regions and poleis the latest.
Also interesting the R-L2 individual.

Wondering from where the hell this L come from…

[Riverman]

Wondering from where the hell this L come from…

Probably with Caucasian-Iranian ancestry already from the Minoans-related groups or later migrations from that direction? Just a guess.

what do you think ( CopperAxe Riverman …) the Mezocsat Probe IA and Hallstatt Bylany_DA112(Celtic boys with a slight Asian touch) could be related to Agathyrsi, Scythian or Cimmerian it has a slight East Asian admixture ?

Agathyrsi probably of strongly mixed ethnic origin with Dacians/Getae , but at the beginning there could also have been several competing nomadic groups Cimmerians, Scythians, Agathyrsi all originating from the Altai region following different paths are the Cimmerians were displaced by the Scythians and assimilated and partly pushed into other areas and drove the Agathyrsi further west from the Scythians and interacted and mixed more with the local population.

I think the Central Carpathian region, where first Tumulus culture, then Gáva, later Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerians, and then Vekerzug etc. were centered was mostly a sink with limited spread outward. The reason for the Thracian survival was rather the Carpathian and small river valleys around, from where they were never fully replaced up to the Early Medieval era and probably survived in some regions even that.
We see the same pattern later with the Huns and early Hungarians, which too had a much stronger impact initially, but later faded largely away while being replaced by groups form the "Carpathian crest" so to speak, North and South alike.

Therefore I would assume that the Agathyrsi are likely to have been mostly Thracian, with more Scythian and some Cimmerian elements still surviving. Agathyrsi being basically a Scythian tribe, which pushed into the Carpathian basin, replaced the Cimmerian remnants and mixed with the local Thracians which were dominant in numbers throughout all these stages anyway. However, such incursions could have resulted in regional replacements and shifts in patrilineages more so than in total autosomal ancestry. This is something which needs to be seen.

[Zelto]

The Cimmerian from the Thraco-Cimmerian Mezocsat group which was N (sample IR1):

IR1 actually is N-Y6503. In fact, according to FTDNA he forms a clade with DA220, a "Wusun" sample from the Turgen 2 site in Kazakhstan (2300-2000 BP).

[Avraam Kyriakidis]

Probably with Caucasian-Iranian ancestry already from the Minoans-related groups or later migrations from that direction? Just a guess.



I think the Central Carpathian region, where first Tumulus culture, then Gáva, later Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerians, and then Vekerzug etc. were centered was mostly a sink with limited spread outward. The reason for the Thracian survival was rather the Carpathian and small river valleys around, from where they were never fully replaced up to the Early Medieval era and probably survived in some regions even that.
We see the same pattern later with the Huns and early Hungarians, which too had a much stronger impact initially, but later faded largely away while being replaced by groups form the "Carpathian crest" so to speak, North and South alike.

Therefore I would assume that the Agathyrsi are likely to have been mostly Thracian, with more Scythian and some Cimmerian elements still surviving. Agathyrsi being basically a Scythian tribe, which pushed into the Carpathian basin, replaced the Cimmerian remnants and mixed with the local Thracians which were dominant in numbers throughout all these stages anyway. However, such incursions could have resulted in regional replacements and shifts in patrilineages more so than in total autosomal ancestry. This is something which needs to be seen.

Not sure but L in the case of Pontics is probably a Caucasian(Colchian) lineage i would say.But this L might be different haven't checked in details.