Page 571 of 598 FirstFirst ... 71471521561569570571572573581 ... LastLast
Results 5,701 to 5,710 of 5971

Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #5701
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    This is not true, that they had so much more influence, because the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was far more important than the Scythian raids from the cultural perspective, since this steppe-Caucasian influence initiated the Early Iron Age and the Basarabi phenomenon in the Carpatho-Balkans and from there Early Hallstatt.

    Also, they lived in Mezocsat and these Mezocsat Thraco-Cimmerians did develop fairly smoothly into Vekerzug under Scythian influence. How many Scythian samples with N and that much Caucasian shifted do we have? It will really depend on their steppe : Caucasian : East Asian ratio as to whether they are close to Cimmerians or Scythians. The Cimmerians had, usually, more Caucasian and East Asian admixture than the Scythians and Sarmatians, they were generally less homogeneous.
    We have like four actual Cimmerian samples, and they look like fresh arrivals from the Altai and some are mixed with bronze age steppe peoples. The sample you are referring to from Hungary is obviously mixed with western populations, and according to the burial context was a baby buried with the local population.

    Furthermore actual Cimmerians didn't even go that far west, those were the Agathyrsi or another unattested nomadic faction. Cimmerians migrated south of the Caucasus and after their epoch there they ended up as a non-factor, defeated and what was left assimilated into the Scythian populations. By the time of these samples Cimmerians only appear as inspirations for topo/hydronyms.

    This map isn't perfect but shows the situation:



    Ironically Scythian sample MJ15 is more likely to have north Caucasian ancestry than any actual Cimmerian period sample, of which MK001 is most likely to actually be a Cimmerian.

    Target: RUS_Marinskaya_IA:MK3001
    Distance: 2.7277% / 0.02727663
    48.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    34.4 MNG_North_N
    7.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    6.0 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    3.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

    And Cimmerians and Scythians obviously descend from the same population, their presence in the Near East cannot even be distinguished from one another because their material culture is identical. If a Cimmerian sample has N, so will Scythians. Several N clades from WSHG, Siberian/Mongolian pastoralists as well as clades as N-P43 were part of the paternal lineage ensemble of Scytho-Siberians.
    Latest blog entry:
    Hidden Content

    Also worth checking out:
    Hidden Content

  2. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-04-2022),  chitosechitose (10-04-2022),  J Man (10-04-2022),  jamtastic (10-04-2022),  Karagjoz (10-04-2022),  Kelmendasi (10-04-2022),  Psynome (10-05-2022),  Riverman (10-04-2022),  Zelto (10-04-2022)

  3. #5702
    Registered Users
    Posts
    486
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Western Hunter Gatherer
    Nationality
    Albanian/Arbereshe
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a-M423

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Mycenaeans + Empuries + Kastrouli_Anc (Archaic Greece) + New samples from Sicily + Marathon_Rom (this one doesn't have the BA Greek profile though)

    Code:
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2		I8208		J-Z1846 	J2a
    GRC_Mycenaean				I9041		J-Z6057		J2a
    GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA			I16709		J-Y14434	J2a
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA		I13577		G-Z7016		G2a
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA		I13579		J-Y14434	J2a
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA	I13517_d	G-Z6494		G2a
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA	I13518		R-PF7563	R1b
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA	I19364		R-M269		R1b
    GRC_Kastrouli_Anc			I17962		T-S27463	T1a
    GRC_Marathon_Rom			I7833		T-CTS3767	T1a
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I10945		J-Y151557*	J2a
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7217		L-L595*		L2
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I10948		R-Y13200*	R1b
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7218		T-S27463*	T1a
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I10952		J-Z7706*	J2a
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7221		G-Z42565*	G2a
    Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1			I7219		G-PF3346*	G2a
    Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I7224		T-S27463*	T1a
    Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I7225		R-L2*		R1b
    Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I7223		J-FGC45722*	J2a
    Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I17866		J-Z35779	J2a
    Sicily_Himera_409BCE			I17884		L-L595		L2
    I dont think all those himera results were ancient greeks, looks like they had a lot of mercenaries with them

  4. #5703
    Registered Users
    Posts
    415
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Turkish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Capalibag_MA:I20326
    Y-DNA (P)
    N-P43 (FTDNA Y-37)

    Great Seljuk Empire Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    I dont think all those himera results were ancient greeks, looks like they had a lot of mercenaries with them
    Those with non-Greek profiles are not included. Mercenaries with Baltic, Steppe and Caucasian profiles can easily be told apart from Greeks. Thracians (if there are any) might overlap with Greeks though.
    Last edited by Alkaevli; 10-04-2022 at 05:14 PM.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Alkaevli For This Useful Post:

     parasar (10-04-2022)

  6. #5704
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,874
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Furthermore actual Cimmerians didn't even go that far west, those were the Agathyrsi or another unattested nomadic faction. Cimmerians migrated south of the Caucasus and after their epoch there they ended up as a non-factor, defeated and what was left assimilated into the Scythian populations. By the time of these samples Cimmerians only appear as inspirations for topo/hydronyms.
    The Agathyrsi appear to be a later formation under renewed Scythian influence on top of the Thraco-Cimmerian Mezocsat group. Even if the individual was mixed, as you state, he had a clearly Cimmerian profile, completely foreign to the Carpathian basin, he sticks out in this group of rather Late Gáva locals, and clearly in the direction of "typical Cimmerians". So we can say he was of actual Cimmerian descend.
    While the bulk of the Cimmerians didn't move into Central Europe, some Cimmerian splinters definitely did, we see them in the record and they destroyed the Gáva fortress belt in the central region - they couldn't destroy the Northern one, which allowed Late Gáva to survive especially in Transcarpathia, from which later some Dacian groups might have emerged.

    But we see the actual destruction caused by the incoming Cimmerians and the individual in question proves their biological presence, as small or big as it might have been. Both Gáva and Lusatians did suffer under the Cimmerian raids, this is absolutely evident in the archaeological record.

    At a turning-point of the Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age mass items of eastern
    origin appeared in the area of central Europe. There were jewellery, elements of horse
    harness and military items. Presence of these objects was observed in the area of Poland,
    Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Italy as well as eastern France.
    To the earliest forms, characteristic for the classical phase of the Cimmerian culture,
    belong arrowheads. Relatively small number of these arrowheads found in central Europe is
    difficult to interpret. They are connected with the Chernogorovka and the Novocherkassk
    complex1
    dated from 1007 to 815 BC and from 997 to 805 BC2
    . Their presence in the
    Carpathian Basin can be a result of the infiltration of Cimmerian groups in Period Hallstatt B2,
    dislodged by the Scythian societies from the origin steppes3
    . Herodotus in his ethnographic
    treatise wrote: It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the
    Massaget’, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes (Volga),
    and entered the land of Cimmeria. For the land which is now inhabited by the Scyths was
    formerly the country of the Cimmerians4
    .
    The distribution of the early types of so-called Cimmerian objects can be related to the
    first stage of the nomadic influences. In the Middle Danube Urnfield culture these influences
    are visible in the new east European grave form, underlining social status through so-called
    princes’ graves. In the northern part of the Great Hungarian Plain the impact of the nomadic
    people can be seen in a new type of inhumation grave, containing arms and elements of horsegear. Probably these contacts took form of commercial and symbolic trade, partially
    accompanied by limited military raids penetrating to the north, as far as the centre of the
    Lusatian Urnfield culture.

    Second stage of the Cimmerians influences was in Period Hallstatt B3. In the
    archaeological record this event is represented by the collapse of the Gáva-Holihrady complex5
    and the development of the Mezöcsát culture which was a result of integration of the local
    population with small groups of newcomers6
    . Through the Mezöcsát culture, the Cimmerian
    systems began to influence other regions of central Europe, mainly through commercial trade
    mixed with elements of the prestige-goods exchange, probably by rare military raids, too.

    Result of these penetrations may be the presence Cimmerian type objects in the northern part
    of central Europe but also occurrence of the idea to build fortified settlements.
    The Scythian influence came only later, we have a pretty precise data for it:
    In the Period Hallstatt C, the contact of the Cimmerian groups with other regions had
    been cultural character. Their influences can be found in the East-Hallstatt cultural groups,
    which were located between the rapidly developing Etruscan culture and the Greek colonies in
    the south
    , and the rich resources of the barbarian Europe to the north. At this time, societies of
    the East-Hallstatt zone began to play a major role in the exchange and interregional contact in
    central Europe. The nomadic influences on Early Iron Age cultures can be seen in the
    increasing role of horse, horse riding and wagons7.

    The appearance of the Scythian type arrowheads in this time is explained mainly as an
    invasion of the Scythian groups on the central European territory8
    . Herodotus wrote that9
    …The enemy no sooner heard, than they quickly joined all their troops in one, and both
    portions of the Scythian army – alike that which consisted of a single division, and that made
    up of two accompanied by all their allies, the Sauromatae, the Budini, and the Geloni, set off
    in pursuit, and made straight for the Ister... Based on this unclear fragment, some scholars10
    interpreted these arrowheads like a proofs of the Scythian groups’ raids in Carpathian Basin.
    This situation could be a place exactly about 513-512 BC, after unsuccessful Darius’ expedition
    on Saka people
    11
    .
    So the Scythians pressed on to the West, where still Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerian people lived, shortly before the finds from Himera. This opens up all kind of possibilities were the mercenaries might have coming from, including remains or even fleeing Thraco-Cimmerians.

    It doesn't change the principle whether they were Cimmerians or Scythians, because both had a base of Thracians among them, as the regional substrate:

    The position of the middlemen in contacts between the Scythians and communities
    from central Europe was held by local populations of the so-called Thracian Hallstatt, from the
    area between the Pruth and the Dnestr Rivers. The two cultural groups from Transylvania and
    Alföld related strongly to the Scythian traditions. In the area of these groups graves of the
    Scythian tradition were identified. All pottery from the sites belonging to this cultural group
    was made in the local tradition deriving from the late phase of the Gáva culture13, bronze and
    iron products, from the basin of the Mureş River, provide clear evidence of intensive contacts
    between local populations and the Scythian culture
    14.

    The scale and character of these contacts
    were different from those between the Scythian culture and the forest-steppe area of Moldavia.
    The local populations of Moldavia had more regular and longer-lasting contacts with the nomadic world, but the effects of these contacts were never as significant as they were in the
    area of the Carpathian Basin. Many central and east European scholars15 interpreted this
    phenomenon in the terms of changes in population and tried to correlate the cultural changes in
    Transylvania with the ethnic expansion of the Scythians tribe called the Agathyrsae16. There is,
    however, not enough evidence to support this interpretation, but interpretations of the ancient
    written sources correctly located the Agathyrsae in Transylvania. Harmatta17 joined cultural
    groups in the Great Hungarian Plain from the VIth-Vth centuries BC, with historical tribes called
    the Sigynnae18
    .
    In the two centuries preceding the period of the Scythian influences, the area of the
    Carpathian Basin experienced a period of significant cultural change. The old Urnfield
    traditions and intensive contacts with the Cimmerian tribes helped to develop the East
    Hallstatt culture, which formed an important economic and cultural component in central
    Europe. The Mezöcsát culture, which appeared in the Carpathian Basin as a result of the early
    nomadic influences in the VIIIth-VIIth century BC, established close contacts with the East
    Hallstatt culture. These horizons are represented by rich groups of findings that represent the
    mixture of the Cimmerian, Scythian, and Hallstatt traditions. Early Scythian influences led not
    only to the development of the Vekerzug culture, but also to the occurrence in north-eastern
    Slovakia and western Ukraine of the Kuštanovice group19
    .
    Kuštanovice = being considered Proto-Dacians by many scholars.

    If the barrows discovered in the area of the Vekerzug culture suggest close contacts
    between the local population and the nomadic tribes from eastern Europe, then the dominance
    of cremation in cemeteries in the north-eastern region of the Vekerzug culture20 and in the
    Kuštanovice group21 indicates the possibility of strong cultural and economic relations
    between these groups and local versions of the Scythian culture in the forest-steppe zone22
    .
    Direct contacts through the Carpathian Mountains have probably developed as a northern axis
    of the long distance system of exchange which linked central Europe with the east European
    steppes (Map 1).
    At the same time, in the Little Hungarian Plain and in south-western Slovakia were
    incorporated into the systems of exchange and intercultural contact. In the archaeological
    record, this process is expressed through the emergence of cemeteries characteristic for the
    southern region of the Vekerzug culture. The largest and the most important of them are those
    discovered in Chotín (I-A and I-23. The Scythian type material found in the graves, in both
    of the cemeteries at Chotín, include bronze arrowheads, horse bits and another items of
    Vekerzug type
    .
    From Chotin we have an E-V13 with a more Carpatho-Balkan-like profile too!

    https://www.academia.edu/6176834/The..._millennium_BC

    On the Agathyrsi from the historical perspective:
    After being expelled westwards from the steppe, the Agathyrsi settled in the territories of present-day Moldavia, Transylvania, and possibly Oltenia, where they mingled with the indigenous population who were largely Thracians.[2][7] In the 5th century BC, Herodotus mentioned the presence of the Agathyrsi in the area of present-day Moldavia, to the north of the Danube and the east of the Carpathian Mountains, by which time they had become acculturated to the local Getic populations[7] and they practised the same customs as the Thracians, although the names of their kings, such as Agathyrsus and Spargapeithes, were Iranian.[2][3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathyrsi

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-04-2022),  fabrice E (10-04-2022),  Psynome (10-05-2022)

  8. #5705
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,644
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    C-F5481
    mtDNA (M)
    M8a

    Kyrgyzstan
    Would it make sense to make a separate thread about Himera paper?

  9. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to rozenfeld For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-04-2022),  Ariel90 (10-04-2022),  Chnodomar (10-04-2022),  Fried (10-04-2022),  Karagjoz (10-04-2022),  Lenny Nero (10-04-2022),  parasar (10-04-2022),  Psynome (10-05-2022)

  10. #5706
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,359
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indo-europeen
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Y33 Kurgan/ CWC
    mtDNA (M)
    H76

    European Union Poland Germany Lithuania Romania Ukraine
    what do you think ( CopperAxe Riverman …) the Mezocsat Probe IA and Hallstatt Bylany_DA112(Celtic boys with a slight Asian touch) could be related to Agathyrsi, Scythian or Cimmerian it has a slight East Asian admixture ?

    Agathyrsi probably of strongly mixed ethnic origin with Dacians/Getae , but at the beginning there could also have been several competing nomadic groups Cimmerians, Scythians, Agathyrsi all originating from the Altai region following different paths are the Cimmerians were displaced by the Scythians and assimilated and partly pushed into other areas and drove the Agathyrsi further west from the Scythians and interacted and mixed more with the local population.
    Last edited by Alain; 10-04-2022 at 05:31 PM.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-Sarmatian.

    YourDNAPortal Calculator ancient K36

    Kivutkalns_153_Latvia_BA 22
    DA112_Hallstatt-Bylany_800BC 19
    DA191_Hungary_Scythian 12
    IA_Wielbark_Mas_5_PL 11
    BA_Hungary_RISE254 7
    IA_Wielbark_Kow_25_PL 7
    LBA_Lithuania_RISE598 7
    IA_Britain_York_6DRIF22 6
    IA_EastKazachstan_Is2 6
    CHL_Iran_I1670 2

  11. #5707
    Registered Users
    Posts
    447
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pontus
    Nationality
    Pontic Greek
    aDNA Match (1st)
    0.02936008 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    0.03887734 TUR_SE_Mardin_PostMdv:I4540
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    0.03897755 TUR_SE_Gaziantep_Byz:I14648
    Y-DNA (P)
    G-Y316412
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y140828

    Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    So far more L than E-V13 in ancient Greeks. Who would have thought some years ago...
    But I still think this will change with the more Thracian influences regions and poleis the latest.
    Also interesting the R-L2 individual.
    Wondering from where the hell this L come from…

  12. #5708
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,874
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraam Kyriakidis View Post
    Wondering from where the hell this L come from…
    Probably with Caucasian-Iranian ancestry already from the Minoans-related groups or later migrations from that direction? Just a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    what do you think ( CopperAxe Riverman …) the Mezocsat Probe IA and Hallstatt Bylany_DA112(Celtic boys with a slight Asian touch) could be related to Agathyrsi, Scythian or Cimmerian it has a slight East Asian admixture ?

    Agathyrsi probably of strongly mixed ethnic origin with Dacians/Getae , but at the beginning there could also have been several competing nomadic groups Cimmerians, Scythians, Agathyrsi all originating from the Altai region following different paths are the Cimmerians were displaced by the Scythians and assimilated and partly pushed into other areas and drove the Agathyrsi further west from the Scythians and interacted and mixed more with the local population.
    I think the Central Carpathian region, where first Tumulus culture, then Gáva, later Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerians, and then Vekerzug etc. were centered was mostly a sink with limited spread outward. The reason for the Thracian survival was rather the Carpathian and small river valleys around, from where they were never fully replaced up to the Early Medieval era and probably survived in some regions even that.
    We see the same pattern later with the Huns and early Hungarians, which too had a much stronger impact initially, but later faded largely away while being replaced by groups form the "Carpathian crest" so to speak, North and South alike.

    Therefore I would assume that the Agathyrsi are likely to have been mostly Thracian, with more Scythian and some Cimmerian elements still surviving. Agathyrsi being basically a Scythian tribe, which pushed into the Carpathian basin, replaced the Cimmerian remnants and mixed with the local Thracians which were dominant in numbers throughout all these stages anyway. However, such incursions could have resulted in regional replacements and shifts in patrilineages more so than in total autosomal ancestry. This is something which needs to be seen.

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-04-2022),  Avraam Kyriakidis (10-04-2022),  Zelto (10-04-2022)

  14. #5709
    Registered Users
    Posts
    522
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    N1c
    mtDNA (M)
    U2e

    Germany Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Cimmerian from the Thraco-Cimmerian Mezocsat group which was N (sample IR1):
    IR1 actually is N-Y6503. In fact, according to FTDNA he forms a clade with DA220, a "Wusun" sample from the Turgen 2 site in Kazakhstan (2300-2000 BP).


  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Zelto For This Useful Post:

     Alain (10-04-2022),  CopperAxe (10-04-2022),  Riverman (10-04-2022)

  16. #5710
    Registered Users
    Posts
    447
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pontus
    Nationality
    Pontic Greek
    aDNA Match (1st)
    0.02936008 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    0.03887734 TUR_SE_Mardin_PostMdv:I4540
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    0.03897755 TUR_SE_Gaziantep_Byz:I14648
    Y-DNA (P)
    G-Y316412
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y140828

    Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Probably with Caucasian-Iranian ancestry already from the Minoans-related groups or later migrations from that direction? Just a guess.



    I think the Central Carpathian region, where first Tumulus culture, then Gáva, later Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerians, and then Vekerzug etc. were centered was mostly a sink with limited spread outward. The reason for the Thracian survival was rather the Carpathian and small river valleys around, from where they were never fully replaced up to the Early Medieval era and probably survived in some regions even that.
    We see the same pattern later with the Huns and early Hungarians, which too had a much stronger impact initially, but later faded largely away while being replaced by groups form the "Carpathian crest" so to speak, North and South alike.

    Therefore I would assume that the Agathyrsi are likely to have been mostly Thracian, with more Scythian and some Cimmerian elements still surviving. Agathyrsi being basically a Scythian tribe, which pushed into the Carpathian basin, replaced the Cimmerian remnants and mixed with the local Thracians which were dominant in numbers throughout all these stages anyway. However, such incursions could have resulted in regional replacements and shifts in patrilineages more so than in total autosomal ancestry. This is something which needs to be seen.
    Not sure but L in the case of Pontics is probably a Caucasian(Colchian) lineage i would say.But this L might be different haven't checked in details.

Page 571 of 598 FirstFirst ... 71471521561569570571572573581 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (TITLES/ABSTRACTS ONLY)
    By History-of-Things in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 3714
    Last Post: 01-20-2023, 01:23 PM
  2. Ancient Celtic Y dna discussion
    By Principe in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 01-16-2021, 10:47 PM
  3. R2 - Ancient DNA Discussion
    By Tomasso29 in forum R2-M479
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-05-2020, 02:06 PM
  4. Replies: 47
    Last Post: 09-15-2015, 09:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •