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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #5881
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    0.03302383 Iberia_West_Monteda_Nora:R10491
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    That is very interesting, so there was J-L283 among mycenans of that area, i believe it was not a main lineage among them in general, otherwise it would have a higher presence among modern Greeks.
    The individuals are all close paternal relatives, so in the end they amount to just 1 L283 dude and only one L283 subclade.
    Their J2b2a1 clade is indeed likely of Cetina origin.

    Cetina pottery was found in the Peloponese , list of the sites:

     

    Western Greece
    173. Andravida-Lechaina
    (Patras, Peloponnesus)
    – settlement. Finds were collected from a dumpsiteafter the archaeological site had been obliterated by construction. Among them are several sherds more or
    less resembling Cetina style pottery (Rambach 2007late 15: d, Plate 16: c, i, Plate 17: e, Plate 18: a, c-f).
    174. Korakou
    (Corinth, Peloponnesus) – settlement.
    Several fragments of vessels of peculiar shapes,decorated in a manner reminiscent of Cetina style,were recovered in the course of Blegen’s excavations
    (Rutter 1982: Plate 100: 39, 41, 42).
    175. Lerna
    (Lerna, Peloponnesus) – settlement.
    Fragments of pottery comparable to Cetina style were
    recovered from three subphases (IVa, IVb, and IVc)attributed to EH III Period (Rutter 1982: 461, Figures2-3, Plates 98-100; Maran 1987: 79). Among them aremore or less characteristic Cetina potsherds (Rutter1982: #12-15, #18, #20-28, #35-38; Maran 1987: Figure 3:6-8; Nicolis 1998: Figure 6: 5) and fragments of vessels of
    peculiar shapes, decorated in a manner reminiscent of
    Cetina style (Rutter 1982: #16, #17, #33).
    176. Olympia
    (Peloponnesus) – settlement. Two
    groups of complete vessels were found in the course
    of Dörpfeld’s excavations on the floor of an elongated
    house with a rounded end. Among them were two cupsand five beakers whose shape and decoration more or
    less resemble Cetina style pottery (Dörpfeld 1935: Plate22: 1-5, 7, 8; Maran 1987: Figure 2: 1, Figure 3: 1). The same
    layer yielded several flaked stone artifacts, some of them
    made of obsidian (Dörpfeld 1935: 101, Plate 22: 17-27). An
    open bowl with wide rim, decorated in a characteristicCetina manner, was published subsequently, without
    information about its context (Maran 1987: Figure 3:9). All of those finds were attributed to EH III Period(Rutter 1982: 481; Maran 1987: 79). Other potsherds
    of ‘Balkan appearance’ have been recovered by laterexcavations. According to their textual description,at least some of them are comparable to Cetina style
    pottery (Maran 2007: 14; Rambach 2007: 82-83), but
    they have not been illustrated. Notably, the decorativedesigns on about sixty fragments of gray Minian ware,which most likely are of a local provenience, resemble
    Cetina style designs (Rambach 2007: 85).
    177. Steno
    (Leukas) – mounds. Thirty out of about fifty
    relatively small and densely packed mounds have beenexcavated, each one girded by a circular drystone wall.They contained more than sixty burials known as ‘RoyalGraves’ or ‘R-graves’. The mounds were erected abovepyre sites, strewn by occasional small fragments ofcremated human bones. They contained pithos burials,cist burials, stone-lined burials, and burials in simplepits, many of them marking later episodes of mound
    reuse (Dörpfeld 1927: 217-250). Most authors agree that
    the primary R-graves are attributable roughly to the EH
    II Period (Maran 2007: 9; Oikonomidis
    et al.
    2011: 196-
    197; Merkouri and Kouli 2011: 207; Müller Celka 2011:418).


    Here a map:

    The red square i added to indicate location of mycenean mygdalia (it is not a C.C. site).

    Source:
    https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory
    Last edited by Platonitzsche; 11-30-2022 at 10:46 PM. Reason: typo mistakes
    Target: Platonitzsche
    Distance: 4.5455% / 0.04545495
    64.8 Caucasus_Dzudzuana_24.000bc(Barcin)
    17.4 Ancient_North_Eurasian_15.000bc(AG3)
    8.8 West_Europe_Hunter_Gatherer_12.000bc_(Villabruna)
    4.4 Ancestral_North_African_4,500bc_(Mota_ANA-like)
    4.2 Sub_Saharan_African
    0.4 Basal_East_Eurasian_37615bc

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  3. #5882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platonitzsche View Post
    That is very interesting, so there was J-L283 among mycenans of that area, i believe it was not a main lineage among them in general, otherwise it would have a higher presence among modern Greeks.
    The individuals are all close paternal relatives, so in the end they amount to just 1 L283 dude and only one L283 subclade.
    Their J2b2a1 clade is indeed likely of Cetina origin.

    Cetina pottery was found in the Peloposnese , list of the sites:
    These finds are a vindication which was in the waiting for some time now for Joseph Maran, Professor of Prehistory and Early History at the University of Heidelberg, who is the first who argued in detail that Cetina culture spread in the Peloponnese in ... 2007.

    Joseph Maran, Seaborne Contacts between the Aegean, the Balkans and the Central Mediterranean in the 3rd Millennium BC – The Unfolding of the Mediterranean World, 2007:


    While accordingly for the second chronological horizon the evidence for possible links between the Aegean, the West Balkans and the Central Mediterranean interaction zones is inconclusive, we are on much firmer ground to claim that during the third horizon between 2200 and 2000 BC wide parts of the Mediterranean were interconnected. The most important aspect within these far-reaching contacts is the expansion of the Cetina phenomenon from its centre in the Eastern Adriatic region and its hinterland to all coastal zones around the Adriatic and Ionian Sea (Pl. II-III, V). This phenomenon for a short time represented a common denominator for areas from the Caput Adriae in the North to the Maltese Islands and the Peloponnese in the South which before and after this time have followed very different cultural trajectories. Without going into details, it should be pointed out that in the last two decades it became evident that specific elements of shape and of the syntax, as well as the motives of incised and impressed decoration are shared by pottery groups deriving from the Peloponnese (cf. Pl. II:1.5.7.10; IIIa:1-2.5) the Cetina culture (cf. Pl. II:3-4.6.9.11.13-14) and the Tarxien Cemetery culture (cf. Pl. II:2.8; IIIa:3.6).[75] During the last years new research has added significantly to the corpus of comparisons. This especially applies to the finds from the recent excavations in Olympia, whose long-distance relations have been thoroughly analyzed by J. Rambach[76]. Outside of Southern Greece new evidence suggests that some of the forms of pottery which were thought to be restricted to only certain areas of the Cetina phenomenon have a wider distribution. The neck-handled amphora which until recently was known from Olympia (Pl. II:10), the West Balkans (Pl. II:13-14) and possibly from Malta[77] is also attested, as shown by L. Cataldo, in the material from the chamber-tomb of Altamura-Casal Sabini in Apulia together with other examples of Cetina-pottery (Pl. II:12).[78] The so-called Bass bowl with incised decoration, which was hitherto only common to the Peloponnese (Pl. II:1) and the Maltese Islands (Pl. II:2), seems to be represented by at least one example in the core-area of the Cetina culture among the finds from the tumulus 2 of the necropolis of Shkrel in Northern Albania (Pl. II:3).[79] The vessel from Shkrel appears to be a mixture between an EH III form[80] and a typical pedestal-footed vessel of the Cetina culture. In my opinion it belongs to a group of ceramic “hybrids” which are characterized by the blending of different pottery traditions and which can be found in the whole area of distribution of the Cetina phenomenon.[81]

    In light of the extraordinary importance of the Cetina phenomenon for the emergence of new Mediterranean exchange patterns, a few words about its chronological position seem appropriate. In 1995 Ph. della Casa put forward a considerably earlier dating for the Cetina culture than was hitherto proposed, inasmuch as he correlated it with the earlier part of the Bell Beaker phenomenon between 2500 and 2200 BC.[82] There can be little doubt that della Casa has rightly pointed to the insecurity surrounding the internal chronology of Cetina which stems from insufficient stratigraphic evidence and very few 14C-dates.[83] Still, there are clear indications coming from outside the Eastern Adriatic region that what is called Cetina culture must at least partially be significantly later than suggested by della Casa. In Greece all contexts with Cetina-like pottery date to EH III in the sense of the classical definition by J.L. Caskey.[84] According to 14C dates this phase cannot have started much earlier than 2200 BC (Pl. V).[85] As regards the apsidal buildings of the Altis of Olympia which represent the crucial find complex of Cetina-type pottery in Greece, J. Rambach has recently demonstrated that the find assemblages with the clearest links to the Cetina culture belong to the later part of EH III which corresponds to the very end of the 3rd millennium BC

    Again, it is difficult to reconcile the described exchange constellations in the Adriatic-Ionian region with the notion of the Aegean acting as the “centre” and the West Balkans and Italy as a “periphery”, but for other reasons than in the first chronological horizon. The first reason relates to the fact that the contacts coincide with one of the most profound upheavals in the prehistory of Greece. Most achievements in architecture and administration which had characterized the period of the corridor-houses disappear around 2200 BC, only to be found again on the Greek Mainland some 800 years later in Mycenaean times![91] At first sight it seems strange, that just during such “crisis years” a wide interaction zone in the Adriatic and Ionian Sea should come into being. In order to understand, why this nevertheless makes sense we get to the second point why it is problematic to conceive of the Balkans as a “periphery” during the last two centuries of the 3rd millennium BC.

    The different groups along the shores of the Adriatic-Ionian region which are related to the Cetina culture, have in common that they either replace earlier cultures or form alien elements amongst a differing cultural milieu.[92] An example for the first category is the Tarxien Cemetery Culture of the Maltese Islands which bears no resemblance to the previous Temple Culture. To the second category belong sites like Rutigliano-Le Rene at the Apulian coast[93] or Olympia in Elis. I regard all this as a reflection of activities of a seafaring population specialized in maritime exchange, which originated in the East Adriatic Region and spread along the shores of the Adriatic and Ionian Sea. In doing this, these “Argonauts of the West Balkans” took advantage of the crisis situation in regions like Malta and the Peloponnese, and occupied places which were of crucial importance for Mediterranean exchange.

    The emergence of the Cetina phenomenon goes along with a re-structuring of the exchange patterns in the Aegean in which some areas suffer a setback and others rise to new importance. That Crete belongs to the “winners” is documented, among other things, by the founding of the Minoan settlement on Kythera.[94] As regards trans-Aegean trade we can be certain that it still flourished between 2200 and 2000 BC. To document the extent of exchange connections within the Eastern Mediterranean at that time I only want to mention the fragment of an imported flask of the EB IV period in Israel which was identified by E. Oren among the Early Bronze sherd material from Tiryns.[95] It seems to me, that during the last centuries of the 3rd millennium BC we are confronted with a quantum-leap in Mediterranean connectivity. Besides the East-West-axis in the East Mediterranean and the North-South axis in the Adriatic-Ionian region the integration of the Maltese Islands for the first time document the cross-linking of exchange circuits from the Tyrrhenian Sea to the East Mediterranean. This provided the background for a hitherto unknown flow not only of metals and other commodities, but also of ideas and information about the Mediterranean and its populations.

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  5. #5883
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    at 36:50

    “Just today we have brand new data from the lab that shows that we have, on the Southern Greek mainland, already before 1600 BC, high steppe signature. So it’s clear that also the Southern Greek mainland, not only the North, but also the South, would be up here" [with '40-60% steppe', next to Logkas]



    https://youtu.be/GTqGXZksFZw?t=2210

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  7. #5884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...798775383&z=10

    Two samples date to ~1900-1800 BCE and all 7 Cetina samples date to 1800 BCE. Two other Cetina-related samples date to the mid 17th century BCE. Hence as you can see there is an abundance of older samples. The sources which I posted are the explanation as to why there's J-L283 in Mycenaean Greece and why such a finding was expected at some point sooner or later.
    I am not talking about cetina, i am talking about proper illyrians which emerged in the iron age. Are you suggesting a common origin for mycenaeans and illyrians?
    Hopefully we find out the truth within the next couple of years with more ancient dna

  8. #5885
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platonitzsche View Post
    That is very interesting, so there was J-L283 among mycenans of that area, i believe it was not a main lineage among them in general, otherwise it would have a higher presence among modern Greeks.
    The individuals are all close paternal relatives, so in the end they amount to just 1 L283 dude and only one L283 subclade.
    Their J2b2a1 clade is indeed likely of Cetina origin.

    Cetina pottery was found in the Peloposnese , list of the sites:

     

    Western Greece
    173. Andravida-Lechaina
    (Patras, Peloponnesus)
    – settlement. Finds were collected from a dumpsiteafter the archaeological site had been obliterated by construction. Among them are several sherds more or
    less resembling Cetina style pottery (Rambach 2007late 15: d, Plate 16: c, i, Plate 17: e, Plate 18: a, c-f).
    174. Korakou
    (Corinth, Peloponnesus) – settlement.
    Several fragments of vessels of peculiar shapes,decorated in a manner reminiscent of Cetina style,were recovered in the course of Blegen’s excavations
    (Rutter 1982: Plate 100: 39, 41, 42).
    175. Lerna
    (Lerna, Peloponnesus) – settlement.
    Fragments of pottery comparable to Cetina style were
    recovered from three subphases (IVa, IVb, and IVc)attributed to EH III Period (Rutter 1982: 461, Figures2-3, Plates 98-100; Maran 1987: 79). Among them aremore or less characteristic Cetina potsherds (Rutter1982: #12-15, #18, #20-28, #35-38; Maran 1987: Figure 3:6-8; Nicolis 1998: Figure 6: 5) and fragments of vessels of
    peculiar shapes, decorated in a manner reminiscent of
    Cetina style (Rutter 1982: #16, #17, #33).
    176. Olympia
    (Peloponnesus) – settlement. Two
    groups of complete vessels were found in the course
    of Dörpfeld’s excavations on the floor of an elongated
    house with a rounded end. Among them were two cupsand five beakers whose shape and decoration more or
    less resemble Cetina style pottery (Dörpfeld 1935: Plate22: 1-5, 7, 8; Maran 1987: Figure 2: 1, Figure 3: 1). The same
    layer yielded several flaked stone artifacts, some of them
    made of obsidian (Dörpfeld 1935: 101, Plate 22: 17-27). An
    open bowl with wide rim, decorated in a characteristicCetina manner, was published subsequently, without
    information about its context (Maran 1987: Figure 3:9). All of those finds were attributed to EH III Period(Rutter 1982: 481; Maran 1987: 79). Other potsherds
    of ‘Balkan appearance’ have been recovered by laterexcavations. According to their textual description,at least some of them are comparable to Cetina style
    pottery (Maran 2007: 14; Rambach 2007: 82-83), but
    they have not been illustrated. Notably, the decorativedesigns on about sixty fragments of gray Minian ware,which most likely are of a local provenience, resemble
    Cetina style designs (Rambach 2007: 85).
    177. Steno
    (Leukas) – mounds. Thirty out of about fifty
    relatively small and densely packed mounds have beenexcavated, each one girded by a circular drystone wall.They contained more than sixty burials known as ‘RoyalGraves’ or ‘R-graves’. The mounds were erected abovepyre sites, strewn by occasional small fragments ofcremated human bones. They contained pithos burials,cist burials, stone-lined burials, and burials in simplepits, many of them marking later episodes of mound
    reuse (Dörpfeld 1927: 217-250). Most authors agree that
    the primary R-graves are attributable roughly to the EH
    II Period (Maran 2007: 9; Oikonomidis
    et al.
    2011: 196-
    197; Merkouri and Kouli 2011: 207; Müller Celka 2011:418).


    Here a map:

    The red square i added to indicate location of mycenean migdalia (it is not a C.C. site).

    Source:
    https://www.academia.edu/42625481/Sp...tic_prehistory
    More ancient dna is needed to understand what is going on here but there is a lack of r1b in ancient greece and yet they should have had some indo european input. Maybe the j2b were actual mycenaeans and came from indo european cetina, mycenaeans buried their dead just like cetina (though some cetina also burned)

    Maybe most of the other y dna that has been found in ancient greece is of minoan or persian origin. There is also the possibility that greece has suffered some sort of population replacement which greatly diminished the original mycenaean ydna. Modern ydna isnt important when discussing ancient dna
    Last edited by Karagjoz; 11-30-2022 at 08:52 PM.

  9. #5886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    These finds are a vindication which was in the waiting for some time now for Joseph Maran, Professor of Prehistory and Early History at the University of Heidelberg, who is the first who argued in detail that Cetina culture spread in the Peloponnese in ... 2007.

    Joseph Maran, Seaborne Contacts between the Aegean, the Balkans and the Central Mediterranean in the 3rd Millennium BC – The Unfolding of the Mediterranean World, 2007:

    Volker Heyd linked Cetina to the Bell Beaker culture. Apparently one Cetina sample had R-U152.

    “one can argue that Bell Beaker margins reached as far as the Early Bronze Age core, Greece, Crete and the Aegean. This European south-east has only recently come into the focus of Beaker research. Besides conspicuous pottery evidence mostly from Olympia, it is again the wristguards, and the ‘Montgomery toggles’, that form the majority of the diagnostic Beaker elements. As a result of this recent interest, more wristguards, both the broader four-holed and the oblong-narrow two-holed, are now known from the Aegean than from the whole of Italy, for example. They almost all date to Early Helladic III levels (as does the pottery evidence from Olympia), thus after 2200 BC in absolute terms. This makes them late Beaker, as compared to the central and western European examples. The best explanation for their relatively late appearance lies with a migratory event, rightly described by Maran (e.g. 1998) as bringing Adriatic Cetina people incrementally to southern Greece for some decades from the transition of Early Helladic II to III. And since early Cetina is one of those syncretistic Bell Beaker cultures of its south-eastern periphery as shown above, this best explains the manifestation of these Bell Beaker elements deep in south-east Europe.”

    Heyd 2013, p.63-64
    Last edited by Philjames; 11-30-2022 at 08:45 PM.

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  11. #5887
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    Sorry, looks like it was R-Z2118 not R-U152

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  13. #5888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames View Post
    Sorry, looks like it was R-Z2118 not R-U152
    I'd be interested to learn where you got this from.

  14. #5889
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    I'd be interested to learn where you got this from.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetina_culture

    https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=14420.0

    I18752; 2000-1600 BCE

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  16. #5890
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    Also found him on FTDNA's discovery: )))

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