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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Using formal statistics to measure shared drift, Alan_MA are similar to modern Ossetians and other North-Caucasian populations, while the published Kushan from Tajikistan are closer to BA/IA populations from Central Asia like TKM_IA.

     

     


    It says they only used 20k SNPs during the PCA run, and it's having trouble separating Iran_N/CHG judging by how much the individuals from different groups overlap with each other.
    It would be strange if Alan_MA did not look like modern Ossetians, but who did they look like in the IA period? On Tkm_IA and on these Uz_IA

    When the article about the migration of the Magyars was discussed, it was very strange that the Arpad haplogroup was going somewhere in the area of modern Afghanistan. But apparently it makes sense that the Alan_MA come from just those places Uz_IA and Tkm_IA
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 08-02-2021 at 05:49 PM.

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    The first impression is that they don't differ much from the Kushan from Tajikistan, generally speaking.

     


    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    It would be strange if Alan_MA did not look like modern Ossetians, but who did they look like in the IA period? On Tkm_IA and on these Uz_IA

    When the article about the migration of the Magyars was discussed, it was very strange that the Arpad haplogroup was going somewhere in the area of modern Afghanistan. But apparently it makes sense that the Alan_MA come from just those places Uz_IA and Tkm_IA
    The Alans are commonly regarded as part of the Sarmatians, from whom we have an overabundance of ancient DNA samples. Suffice to say that they don't resemble TKM_IA too much. So are you suggesting that Alans are not related to Sarmatians?
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    The first impression is that they don't differ much from the Kushan from Tajikistan, generally speaking.

     




    The Alans are commonly regarded as part of the Sarmatians, from whom we have an overabundance of ancient DNA samples. Suffice to say that they don't resemble TKM_IA too much. So are you suggesting that Alans are not related to Sarmatians?

    There are also Sarmatians on this PCA. They are shifted north from Alan towards Tagar, West_Siberia_N. Apparently, the classical Sarmatians lived to the north and they went to Europe first, and the Alans, of course, related tribes, came to Europe later

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    The first impression is that they don't differ much from the Kushan from Tajikistan, generally speaking.

     




    The Alans are commonly regarded as part of the Sarmatians, from whom we have an overabundance of ancient DNA samples. Suffice to say that they don't resemble TKM_IA too much. So are you suggesting that Alans are not related to Sarmatians?
    Are some of the new Kushan age samples similar to KNT005 or have IVC/ASI ancestry? Looking at the supplementary tables the three source qpAdm models show them picking up Swat_IA-like ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    The first impression is that they don't differ much from the Kushan from Tajikistan, generally speaking.

     




    The Alans are commonly regarded as part of the Sarmatians, from whom we have an overabundance of ancient DNA samples. Suffice to say that they don't resemble TKM_IA too much. So are you suggesting that Alans are not related to Sarmatians?
    One of the Kushan samples from Tajikistan seems to fully southern central asian or a mix of southern central asian and west asian.

    Target: TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12292
    Distance: 2.3860% / 0.02386013
    58.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    34.4 TKM_IA
    6.6 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
    1.0 Saka_Tian_Shan

    The other seems to be steppe admixed, but I'm not sure if that would be from the Yuezhi-derived early Kushan tribes.

    Target: TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12294
    Distance: 2.2990% / 0.02298970
    57.0 Saka_Tian_Shan
    25.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    17.8 KGZ_Aigyrzhal_BA
    0.2 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
    0.0 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    0.0 NPL_Mebrak_2125BP

    0.0 Saka_Tian_Shan_o
    0.0 TKM_IA

    The 'Central Asian' Xiongnu samples and the samples from Shirenzigou have noticeable amounts of these ancestries, and it is likely that the incoming Yuezhi tribes would've carried minor ancestry from those streams to a various degree considering their origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    There are also Sarmatians on this PCA. They are shifted north from Alan towards Tagar, West_Siberia_N. Apparently, the classical Sarmatians lived to the north and they went to Europe first, and the Alans, of course, related tribes, came to Europe later
    The Alans came from the same region as the other Sarmatian peoples prior, they were just more easternly as other groups were already pushing westwards and before their migration they were likely on the steppes around the Aral-Caspian region. The Yancai/Alanliao mentioned in Chinese records likely refer to the Aorsi and Alans and that is the region they were placed. All Sarmatians are basically derived of Ural-caspian migrants who migrated into the region of Herodotus' Sauromatae, probably assimilating these preceding populations, and the people living within the steppes north of the Aral sea were basically the same folks that settled in the Ural region.

    It is kind of crazy to suggest that the Alans and Aorsi prior to migrating west in this region would have resembled iron age inhabitants of southern Turkmenistan and these new Uzbek samples to be honest. It would also require throwing decades of archaeology and historical analyses in the trash, all based on a rather basic PCA and your loose interpretations of them. At bet they would've had a slighter higher central asian component than many of the published Sarmatians but that is it really.

    Also there currently is no real evidence that the Arpad lineage came out of Afghanistan. IIRC it was based on the presence of a few basal Z2123 lineages, but Z2123 has a really wide Indo-Iranian distribution with many clades having 2000 bc TMRCA dates thus that essentially tells you nothing.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 08-03-2021 at 12:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Are some of the new Kushan age samples similar to KNT005 or have IVC/ASI ancestry? Looking at the supplementary tables the three source qpAdm models show them picking up Swat_IA-like ancestry.
    Nope. The Serkharakat sample has some IVC ancestry (most likely a grandparent/great-grandparent from South Asia) but not much in the Rabat group, who are very similar to I12292 Kushan from Tajikistan. Plus, they are strongly shifted towards Iran_Chl/Ebla_EMBA, unlike KNT005.

     


     


    @CopperAxe

    You're right about him having recent ancestry from the Steppe; the other sample seems entirely local, and so do most of the newly published ones from Surxondaryo in southern Uzbekistan (Rabat).

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Nope. The Serkharakat sample has some IVC ancestry (most likely a grandparent/great-grandparent from South Asia) but not much in the Rabat group, who are very similar to I12292 Kushan from Tajikistan. Plus, they are strongly shifted towards Iran_Chl/Ebla_EMBA, unlike KNT005.

     


     


    @CopperAxe

    You're right about him having recent ancestry from the Steppe; the other sample seems entirely local, and so do most of the newly published ones from Surxondaryo in southern Uzbekistan (Rabat).

     
    That was what the paper said, that the Serkharakat samples had the most SA related ancestry. Do you think the excess ANF ancestry is due to admixture with Seleucid Greeks which is superficially making Iran Chl related pops as their main source of Zagrosian related ancestry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Nope. The Serkharakat sample has some IVC ancestry (most likely a grandparent/great-grandparent from South Asia) but not much in the Rabat group, who are very similar to I12292 Kushan from Tajikistan. Plus, they are strongly shifted towards Iran_Chl/Ebla_EMBA, unlike KNT005.

     


     


    @CopperAxe

    You're right about him having recent ancestry from the Steppe; the other sample seems entirely local, and so do most of the newly published ones from Surxondaryo in southern Uzbekistan (Rabat).

     
    South Asian/IVC-like ancestry was already present in North Afghanistan BA (low quality sample from Darra-e Khur ) and is present among all pops in Afghanistan and East Tajikistan (including rural Pamiri) so he not necessarily has direct ancestry from North Pakistan or India could be also from someplace bit further south in Afghanistan. KNT005 is for example a ASI-rich sample in a Central Asian context that very likely came from Arachosia

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    That was what the paper said, that the Serkharakat samples had the most SA related ancestry. Do you think the excess ANF ancestry is due to admixture with Seleucid Greeks which is superficially making Iran Chl related pops as their main source of Zagrosian related ancestry?
    Persian influences more likely. At least with the Kushan samples from Tajikistan adding Greek sources did give a some small percentages in some runs but there was't really much of a change when including or excluding it so I'm guessing its most likely noise or g25 compensating for a lack of particular imput, and if these new samples are similar to I12292 then it's probably the same for them.

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