Page 201 of 407 FirstFirst ... 101151191199200201202203211251301 ... LastLast
Results 2,001 to 2,010 of 4062

Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #2001
    Registered Users
    Posts
    20
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    What is particularly comical about this entire situation is that it turns out after all of the speculation and theories over the years, the mythical Romans at the very height of their Imperial might, would have just been like regular old Italian folk you see fishing the coasts of Sicily or picking olives in the fields.
    Assuming we got the paper right (months before it's even come out) and that 40 remains from the metropolitan area of Rome are representatives of what the Romans looked like, I don't see what's so funny about them possibly looking like modern fishermen or farmers from Sicily.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Bernard Marx For This Useful Post:

     Hando (03-31-2019)

  3. #2002
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    3,418
    Sex
    Location
    Beira Douro
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Marx View Post
    Assuming we got the paper right (months before it's even come out) and that 40 remains from the metropolitan area of Rome are representatives of what the Romans looked like, I don't see what's so funny about them possibly looking like modern fishermen or farmers from Sicily.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA+Hallstatt,82.2
    Berber_EMA,10
    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     LTG (02-07-2019)

  5. #2003
    Registered Users
    Posts
    20
    Sex

    Not really, unless one has a complex due to outdated nordicist theories. You're beating a dead horse.

  6. #2004
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,077
    Sex

    No samples from Tuscany, yes, but here im referring to the fact that no szmples frm iron age to republican overlap w central italians on pca
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

  7. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Ryukendo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-07-2019),  ffoucart (02-07-2019),  Hando (03-31-2019),  jdean (02-07-2019),  Ruderico (02-07-2019)

  8. #2005
    Registered Users
    Posts
    795
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a CTS11962+L1029+
    mtDNA (M)
    H80

    European Union Germany Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Imperial period cluster (whatever its nature, Greek or Roman) continues in Late Antiquity occupying the same place in PCA as per Ryukendo's report, but the "southern tail" to Middle East disappears, what is the nature of this lost cline ? did it in any way correspond to geography in Italy ? or other ethnic groups ? Punics ?
    this also depends on the full specifics of the samples etc. but if i had to guess then that described stretch from the central cluster to syrian/iraqi-jews are the isola sacra samples (my guess) as the whole site has been described as 'graeco-oriental' meaning hellenised people from anatolia/former seleucid area rather than actual greeks; something most reflected in the cults attis/mithras of the burials and locations; it prob disapaered in late antiquity as this merchant elite disapeared with the dimise of the empire and split into west and east, now appears the described north/nweuropeans which i strongly guess is part of the rising foederati based military system of the late antiquity(pre-odoaker);
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

  9. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to alexfritz For This Useful Post:

     Bernard Marx (02-07-2019),  Hando (03-31-2019),  IronHorse (02-07-2019),  Ruderico (02-07-2019),  Ryukendo (02-07-2019)

  10. #2006
    Registered Users
    Posts
    560
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic, Near East
    Nationality
    Murcan
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    T2a1a

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    So basically Romans went from Sardinian-like (but east-shifted)in Neolithic times to Sicilian-like in Imperial times.
    Right, but as Agammemon pointed out, in between (LBA to Early Iron Age) Romans must have looked more like modern Romans. The Steppe in Central Italy must have peaked during Rome's prehistory and early Republican period (in MBA-Early_IA), then during Rome's urban stage the population shifted "south"; then during late empire it shifted back north again with the Germanic migrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo
    BRONZE AGE (EARLY)
    Overlaps modern-day Sardinia, Iran_N percentage declines, WHG and EEF increases
    (Note that this represents a Europeanisation of the gene pool!) Very homogeneous.

    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.
    EHG appears, Levant N Appears for the first time, sporadic and inhomogeneous distribution, Iran_N increases further.

    If we assume "Italian_EBA" = Sardinian-like, isn't this the most parsimonious explanation for these two distinct clusters on the Iron Age PCA? The fact that there's two distinct clusters (as opposed to all homogeneous) shows that the admixture date of each into Italy_EBA probably was "recent" (within 500 years of the 700 BC sampling cutoff?)

    "North Italian" cluster = Italian_EBA + LBA Italo-Celts
    "South Italian" cluster = Italian_EBA + Magna Graecia + minor admix from Carthaginian & Italo-Celts
    Last edited by K33; 02-07-2019 at 04:51 PM.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to K33 For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (02-07-2019),  Hando (03-31-2019)

  12. #2007
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,775
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I am not so sure about it. It could be true till the end of EBA, but probably not after. As said, EHG is appearing in the IA samples but there aren’t any samples from MBA and LBA (which are crucial for Italics).
    Most of the respected archaeologists of Northern Italy (e.g. De Marinis) see the Polada Culture as a development of Eastern Bell Beaker and derived cultures from the Danube. If the sequence of Polada > Terramare is also correct, then the latter's collapse may have triggered migrations, thus bringing EHG south even earlier. By the way, Bell Beaker is almost completely missing from Southern Italy, but not so in Western Sicily.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  13. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Camulogène Rix (02-07-2019),  ffoucart (02-07-2019),  Hando (03-31-2019),  jdean (02-07-2019),  Pribislav (02-07-2019),  vettor (02-08-2019)

  14. #2008
    Registered Users
    Posts
    302
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Z26403
    mtDNA (M)
    T2e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    There were very few samples from the Iron Age to republican period, at most 8 or smth like that, so the N Italy overlap group had few samples too.

    The vast majority were imperial and late antiquity samples, 40% of the total sampling.

    There were many more sites than Isola Sacra.
    Ryukendo, from what you've seen, do the three collegno outliers cluster with the Imperial and Antiquity era samples or not ?

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to IronHorse For This Useful Post:

     Hando (03-31-2019)

  16. #2009
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,256
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Most of the respected archaeologists of Northern Italy (e.g. De Marinis) see the Polada Culture as a development of Eastern Bell Beaker and derived cultures from the Danube. If the sequence of Polada > Terramare is also correct, then the latter's collapse may have triggered migrations, thus bringing EHG south even earlier. By the way, Bell Beaker is almost completely missing from Southern Italy, but not so in Western Sicily.
    In any case, expansion of the Urnfield Culture to a large part of Italy is likely correlated to Steppe admixture.

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-07-2019),  Hando (03-31-2019),  jdean (02-07-2019)

  18. #2010
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,417
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    England United Kingdom England
    The ramifications of the "LP abruptly appeared after 0 A.D." comment are intriguing.

    The default (but reasoned) interpretation of this from those who'd expect it (per the P-C steppe theory) would attribute it to under-sampling. Another frequent argument raised whenever the sudden appearance of a particular marker arises is a demographic movement or rapid selection. Of these three, I'd consider the first to be most parsimonious (there's a 1ky gap in their sample chronology and there aren't as many samples from this pivotal period of the peninsula's history - The date they've offered is also several centuries ahead of the Barbarian invasions and there's no clear reason why LP would be deemed advantageous within a settled, static, post-city state empire).

    But there is another possible explanation - The "sudden" appearance of LP in their samples after 0 A.D. might be an imprecise biomarker resulting from the breakdown of the rigid social hierarchy that existed for centuries (patricians versus plebians). The precipitating event is known in history (Conflict of the Orders). The "patrician" title still held significant weight following the CotO, though it became a largely nominal title in the centuries that followed (this too is known historically).

    In accordance with their self-recognised origins, and applying this to the P-C steppe theory, we may expect the patricians to have had more EMBA steppe ancestry, alongside higher frequencies of LP, in comparison to the plebians.

    IMO under-sampling probably has a bigger role in their discovery, but I would still expect the general frequency of LP to gradually increase from 500 B.C. onwards among the common citizens/plebians, per the above.

  19. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-07-2019),  Bernard Marx (02-07-2019),  Erikl86 (02-07-2019),  ffoucart (02-07-2019),  Hando (03-31-2019),  jdean (02-07-2019),  Principe (02-07-2019),  Radboud (02-08-2019),  Reza (02-07-2019),  Ruderico (02-07-2019)

Page 201 of 407 FirstFirst ... 101151191199200201202203211251301 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (TITLES/ABSTRACTS ONLY)
    By History-of-Things in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 3029
    Last Post: 12-01-2020, 07:14 PM
  2. R2 - Ancient DNA Discussion
    By Tomasso29 in forum R2-M479
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-05-2020, 02:06 PM
  3. Ancient Celtic Y dna discussion
    By Principe in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 10-15-2018, 01:27 PM
  4. Replies: 47
    Last Post: 09-15-2015, 09:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •