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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Ryukendo, from what you've seen, do the three collegno outliers cluster with the Imperial and Antiquity era samples or not ?
    By the way, shouldn't the Medieval Collegno samples already reflect the modern (post-Barbarian Invasions) genetic make up of the area instead of bringing up yet another bunch (in fact a couple) of "Sicilian-like" Imperial Age Romans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Iran_N has nothing to do with PIE. It is clear from all the papers published to date (by the way, there is no Iran_N in Central Europe).

    And remember that Sardinia was IEnized by Roman colonization.
    The question is open. The linguist Massimo Pittau argues that the Paleo-Sardinian language (or "Sardian language") and the Etruscan language were closely linked, as he argues that they were both emanations of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European. According to Pittau, the "Nuragics" were a population of Lydian origin who imported their Indo-European language to the island, pushing out the Pre-Indo-European languages spoken by the Pre-Nuragic peoples. Alberto Areddu also developed hypothesis that in ancient Sardinia the locals supposedly spoke a particular branch of Indo-European.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Sardinian_language
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    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Pittau
    Again, as reported:
    "Note that the ADMIXTURE only had Iranian, EEF, WHG, EHG and Levant_N, no CHG. Where Iran N appears, it may be a stand-in for CHG". Every recent paper is showing the relation of PIE South of the Caucasus
    The insight that the Caucasus mountains served as a corridor for the spread of CHG ancestry north but also for subtle later gene-flow from the south allows speculations on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia15,49. This also opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, and could offer a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages, as shown on many PIE tree topologies
    - "Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions"
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  4. #2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    But there is another possible explanation - The "sudden" appearance of LP in their samples after 0 A.D. might be an imprecise biomarker resulting from the breakdown of the rigid social hierarchy that existed for centuries (patricians versus plebians). The precipitating event is known in history (Conflict of the Orders). The "patrician" title still held significant weight following the CotO, though it became a largely nominal title in the centuries that followed (this too is known historically).

    In accordance with their self-recognised origins, and applying this to the P-C steppe theory, we may expect the patricians to have had more EMBA steppe ancestry, alongside higher frequencies of LP, in comparison to the plebians.
    I'm very skeptical of this. If I'm not mistaken Italics are assumed to have crossed into Italy as early as 1200BC, it'd be unlikely this population managed to keep itself shielded from outside influence for over a thousand years, particularly as there were more IE-speaking peoples besides Romans themselves. Also, considering the Orientalisation and Hellenification processes were not only of critical importance but also at least partially prestigious, I don't see why the higher classes would be shielded form this sort of geneflow from populations with lower LP frequencies.
    Sampling might indeed be the issue, Ryu did mention only some 8 samples from the Republic, so that must be why, probably none of those individuals were lactose tolerant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Marx View Post
    By the way, shouldn't the Medieval Collegno samples already reflect the modern (post-Barbarian Invasions) genetic make up of the area instead of bringing up yet another bunch (in fact a couple) of "Sicilian-like" Imperial Age Romans?
    The individuals were local, although they could have had distant southern ancestry, but we do not know if they did or not.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 02-07-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    The question is open. The linguist Massimo Pittau argues that the Paleo-Sardinian language (or "Sardian language") and the Etruscan language were closely linked, as he argues that they were both emanations of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European. According to Pittau, the "Nuragics" were a population of Lydian origin who imported their Indo-European language to the island, pushing out the Pre-Indo-European languages spoken by the Pre-Nuragic peoples. Alberto Areddu also developed hypothesis that in ancient Sardinia the locals supposedly spoke a particular branch of Indo-European.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Sardinian_language
    Italian
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Pittau
    Again, as reported:
    "Note that the ADMIXTURE only had Iranian, EEF, WHG, EHG and Levant_N, no CHG. Where Iran N appears, it may be a stand-in for CHG". Every recent paper is showing the relation of PIE South of the Caucasus - "Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions"
    This is not exactly the linguistic consensus.

    In any case, I will not start a new discussion about the Caucasus paper and its « very strange » conclusion (to stay polite). It is quite clear that their results are showing no South of Caucasus admixture in Yamnaya and Steppe related populations. Hence their « tracer dye ». I have already posted numerous times on this paper.

    The South of Caucasus PIE homeland is virtually dead by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I'm very skeptical of this. If I'm not mistaken Italics are assumed to have crossed into Italy as early as 1200BC, it'd be unlikely this population managed to keep itself shielded from outside influence for over a thousand years, particularly as there were more IE-speaking peoples besides Romans themselves. Also, considering the Orientalisation and Hellenification processes were not only of critical importance but also at least partially prestigious, I don't see why the higher classes would be shielded form this sort of geneflow from populations with less LP frequencies.
    Sampling might indeed be the issue, Ryu did mention only some 8 samples from the Republic, so that must be why, probably none of those individuals were lactose tolerant.




    The individuals were local, although they could have had distant southern ancestry, but we do not know if they did or not.
    I think we need to look at the ancient greeks and the term italics they invented and used..............it was only meant as people from basically modern rome and all of the south ( not sicily )


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  10. #2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    The individuals were local, although they could have had distant southern ancestry, but we do not know if they did or not.
    They must, if we are to believe in an early Medieval northward shift in Central and Northern Italians due to the Völkerwanderung (as opposed to a more or less homogeneous Sicilian-like people extending from the Alps to Sicily during the previous era). We can't have it both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I'm very skeptical of this. If I'm not mistaken Italics are assumed to have crossed into Italy as early as 1200BC, it'd be unlikely this population managed to keep itself shielded from outside influence for over a thousand years, particularly as there were more IE-speaking peoples besides Romans themselves. Also, considering the Orientalisation and Hellenification processes were not only of critical importance but also at least partially prestigious, I don't see why the higher classes would be shielded form this sort of geneflow from populations with less LP frequencies.
    Sampling might indeed be the issue, Ryu did mention only some 8 samples from the Republic, so that must be why, probably none of those individuals were lactose tolerant.
    Completely agree.

    My invocation of the patricians and plebians was partly inspired by the somewhat analogous picture observed in the Iranian plateau -The only current Iron Age sample (Hasanlu) is substantially less MLBA steppe (~11%) than the average for most modern Iranian populations (Feyli Kurds/Lors are the only exception to this). The explanations offered previously (under-sampling, additional migrations) and the one volunteered here (increase secondary to breakdown of ancient hierarchies) are possible there. We don't know for certain without the appropriate data-points (both contemporaneous and intermediary samples).

    I doubt the observed differences between the patricians and the plebians, if it existed, was enormous - A disparity along the lines of 40% vs. 20-25% prior to the CotO seems reasonable. There's no set of predetermined circumstantial data-points for us to infer the ruling class were Scandinavian-like in terms of LP rates.

    I also share your doubts regarding the idea of a "static" LP frequency among the patricians (though this wasn't my suggestion - I was describing a possible social mechanism to explain an increase among the plebians that wouldn't be entirely explained by under-sampling).
    Last edited by DMXX; 02-07-2019 at 05:29 PM. Reason: samples -> populations in 1st para

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  13. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I think we need to look at the ancient greeks and the term italics they invented and used..............it was only meant as people from basically modern rome and all of the south ( not sicily )
    Well that would certainly help. A few months ago Aga posted some very interesting information about Tyrsenian having an Italic substate, it would line up nicely with this.
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  15. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    The 40% population was differentiated because they had experienced extensive Greek colonisation, with certain Phoenician trading posts established also. This cultural enrichment from the Greeks as well as their advantageous geography and established trading posts was likely the factor that saw them 'win out' and replace their northern counterparts.



    My point is that all of the people who hedged their bets on Romans being entirely different to modern Italians now have egg on their faces and must accept that it's over. There has been all manner of theories regarding the Romans over the years, many of which starting around WW2. The prevailing one being that the Romans were an elite Nordic caste of people from outside of Italy; tall, blonde and blue eyed, who ruled over the lowly Southern European plebs. What is particularly comical about this entire situation is that it turns out after all of the speculation and theories over the years, the mythical Romans at the very height of their Imperial might, would have just been like regular old Italian folk you see fishing the coasts of Sicily or picking olives in the fields.
    it has always been noted that romans having south italian ethnic similarities ......the bulk of their republican armies where south italians
    their empirical armies is a different set of romans with central and northern italians plus others from outside of modern Italy.

    Firstly they did not take any alpine lands until over 2 generations after taking france, spain, greece, albania, macedonia and some west balkan areas.........all italian alpine areas where not taken until circa 10 BC
    They invaded Britain decades before invading the alps
    Last edited by vettor; 02-07-2019 at 05:32 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Completely agree.

    My invocation of the patricians and plebians was partly inspired by the somewhat analogous picture observed in the Iranian plateau -The only current Iron Age sample (Hasanlu) is substantially less MLBA steppe (~11%) than the average for most modern Iranian populations (Feyli Kurds/Lors are the only exception to this). The explanations offered previously (under-sampling, additional migrations) and the one volunteered here (increase secondary to breakdown of ancient hierarchies) are possible there. We don't know for certain without the appropriate data-points (both contemporaneous and intermediary samples).

    I doubt the observed differences between the patricians and the plebians, if it existed, was enormous - A disparity along the lines of 40% vs. 20-25% prior to the CotO seems reasonable. There's no set of predetermined circumstantial data-points for us to infer the ruling class were Scandinavian-like in terms of LP rates.

    I also share your doubts regarding the idea of a "static" LP frequency among the patricians (though this wasn't my suggestion - I was describing a possible social mechanism to explain an increase among the plebians that wouldn't be entirely explained by under-sampling).
    Rome began very early to include numerous plebeians among the patricians, as early as the 4th century BC. I don't think they were so different genetically.

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