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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #2411
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    I'm trying to understand maybe draw it on a map. Show the Siberian admixture spreading from Siberia to far eastern Europe and then on to less far Eastern Europe and also label the Uralic homeland. Might make things easier for everyone. I can mail you some crayons if you'd like

  2. #2412
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    There is always one person that comes barging into a thread that just has to do this kind of stuff

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  4. #2413
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    Jomon genome sheds light on East Asian population history
    Takashi Gakuhari, Shigeki Nakagome, Simon Rasmussen, Morten Allentoft, Takehiro Sato, Thorfinn Korneliussen, Eske Willerslev, Martin Sikora, Hiroki Oota

    Abstract
    Anatomical modern humans reached East Asia by >40,000 years ago (kya). However, key questions still remain elusive with regard to the route(s) and the number of wave(s) in the dispersal into East Eurasia. Ancient genomes at the edge of East Eurasia may shed light on the detail picture of peopling to East Eurasia. Here, we analyze the whole-genome sequence of a 2.5 kya individual (IK002) characterized with a typical Jomon culture that started in the Japanese archipelago >16 kya. The phylogenetic analyses support multiple waves of migration, with IK002 forming a lineage basal to the rest of the ancient/present-day East Eurasians examined, likely to represent some of the earliest-wave migrants who went north toward East Asia from Southeast Asia. Furthermore, IK002 has the extra genetic affinity with the indigenous Taiwan aborigines, which may support a coastal route of the Jomon-ancestry migration from Southeast Asia to the Japanese archipelago. This study highlight the power of ancient genomics with the isolated population to provide new insights into complex history in East Eurasia.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/579177v1
    "To identify the origin of the Jomon people, we sequenced a 1.85-fold genomic coverage of a 2,500-years old
    Jomon individual (IK002) excavated from the central part of the Japanese archipelago[15]. Comparing
    the Jomon whole-genome sequence with ancient Southeast Asians, we previously reported genetic
    affinity between IK002 and the 8,000-years old Hňaběnhian hunter-gatherer[15]. This direct evidence
    on the link between the Jomon and Southeast Asians, thus, confirms the southern route origin of East
    Asians.
    ...

    IK002 clusters between present-day Southeast and East Asians and the Upper-Paleolithic human
    remain (40 kya) from Tiányuán Cave ...

    We found the IK002 lineage placed basal to the divergence between ancient and present-day Tibetans[7,29] and the common ancestor of the
    remaining ancient/present-day East Eurasians[29,46] and Native Americans[47,48]...

    The divergence of IK002 from the
    ancestors of continental East Asians therefore likely predates the split time between East Asians and
    Native Americans, which has been previously estimated at 26 kya[47]. Thus, the TreeMix strongly
    supported that IK002 is the direct descendant of the people who brought the Upper Paleolithic stone
    tools 38,000 years ago into the Japanese archipelago
    ...

    IK002 is modelled as a basal
    lineage to East Asians, Northeast Asians/East Siberians, and Native Americans (basal East Eurasians:
    bEE)(Fig.4), supporting a scenario in which their ancestors came through south of the Himalayas
    mountains and migrated from Southeast Asia towards the north
    "

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  6. #2414
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    Both IK002 and the Hoabinian HG are in the Reichlab 37.2 release. They don't seem to share any special connection...
    F3: Hoabinhian Jomon Mbuti.DG = 0.255259
    F3: Hoabinhian Nepal_ancient Mbuti.DG = 0.254203
    F3: Hoabinhian XiongNu Mbuti.DG = 0.253654
    F3: Hoabinhian Baikal_EN Mbuti.DG = 0.253428
    These are all within 1 std. error as far as F3's go.
    Though evidently Jomon related populations did extend as far South as Taiwan at some point apparently, the lack of special relation to Hoabinhian would suggest against an ultimately Southern origin of Jomon would it not?
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    They're using ancestry that is ultimately from Siberia as a marker of the Uralic expansion deep into Europe from far Eastern Europe, because the presence of this type of ancestry in European Uralic speakers exposes the genetic relationship between them and Siberian Uralic speakers.
    I wouldn't exclude West Siberia from the list of possible places of origin of Pre Proto Uralic yet:

    "It has already been stressed (Chernykh & Kuzminykh 1987; 1989) that in the course of their fast migration the ST groups actively incorporated numerous elements of other cultures of alien origin. Thus, having crossed the Urals and found themselves in the zone of taiga and mixed forests of the East Euro-pean plain, the bearers of ST culture incorporated into their tribal structures groups of Abashevo population (some of them rather numerous). They also made wide use of arsenic copper, copper-silver alloys, and silver produced in the Abashevo metallurgical centre of the Trans-Ural area. The incorporation of representatives of Fat'yanovo tribes seems quite possible, all the more so as the taiga regions on the left bank of the Volga was the locus of active interrelations of the Fat'yanovo and Balanovo population with late Volosovo tribes (Gurina 1963; Gadzyatskaya 1992; Voronin 1998; Solov'ev 2000). The final stages of this process might develop with participation of Seima-Turbino groups, and some other tribes of West Siberian descent involved in the migration. These could be, for instance, the bearers of the Krotovo pottery tradition singled out among the Chirki antiquities on the Middle Volga (Chernykh & Kuzminykh 1989:276; Solov'ev 2000:26). A number of sites of ST type have been revealed on the Volga left bank: Nikolskoe, Kargulino, and recently investigated Yurino cemetery (Solov'ev 2001). "

    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA19_13.pdf

    Krotov, being present in archeological material of Volga area is fex a very West Siberian phenomenon:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krotov_culture

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  10. #2416
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ...

    Male samples are almost all R1a with a few N3a3a and one relatively recent J2b2 ...
    Coincidentally we were just discussing J2b2 in eastern India.

    So now where do we suppose the contacts between Indo-Aryan and Finno-Uralic happened? Baltic, the Urals, Siberia?
    ...
    I was trying to find another paper that I recall had noticed R1a1 and J2b to be fellow travelers.
    This is the one: http://ejournal23.com/journals_n/1453208266.pdf
    "The ancient R1a1 Y-haplotype (M198-, M459+) bearers could be possibly accompanied with those with J2b Y-DNA ... comb-ware cultures. Y-haplotype J2b as a possible companion of R1a1 on Neolithic sites ... the spot of the noticeable spread of J2b (10-15% of population) is Mordovia (central Russia) (particularly, Moksha environment ...Saami J2b phenomenon.
    The Saami have the reputation of the relict, some kind «reserve» of the ancient genes of Europe (and the bearers of the considerable pre-Uralic
    language substrate) ... The population of the Saami within Kola Peninsula contains about 14% of haplogroup J2b
    (17)...
    we can conclude that the presence of haplotype R1a1 is strongly probable in the cultures of Comb Stamp Ware (with J2b bearers as well) in the Neolithic context ..."


    FWIW,
    The Narasimhan-Reich data had no J2b in either BMAC or Swat Valley.

    Modern distribution:
    (a) J2a-M410 and (b) J2b-M102.
    Last edited by parasar; 05-14-2019 at 04:44 PM.

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  12. #2417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post

    Krotov, being present in archeological material of Volga area is fex a very West Siberian phenomenon:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krotov_culture
    I cant find the paper right now but I'm pretty sure Y haplo Q was found in Elunin. Elunin being a part the Krotov horizon.

    It is listed in this thread but I have seen it elsewhere with a more detailed subclade of Q.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-y-dna-samples

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  14. #2418
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    I cant find the paper right now but I'm pretty sure Y haplo Q was found in Elunin. Elunin being a part the Krotov horizon.

    It is listed in this thread but I have seen it elsewhere with a more detailed subclade of Q.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-y-dna-samples
    I'm not saying N1c is the Krotov lineage, if that is what you're saying. I'm just saying that N1c might be one of the early West Siberian lineages. Or, it may have resided on both sides of Ural mountains, before the obvious Bronze Age expansion. Remains to be seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I was trying to find another paper that I recall had noticed R1a1 and J2b to be fellow travelers.
    This is the one: http://ejournal23.com/journals_n/1453208266.pdf
    "The ancient R1a1 Y-haplotype (M198-, M459+) bearers could be possibly accompanied with those with J2b Y-DNA ... comb-ware cultures. Y-haplotype J2b as a possible companion of R1a1 on Neolithic sites ... the spot of the noticeable spread of J2b (10-15% of population) is Mordovia (central Russia) (particularly, Moksha environment ...Saami J2b phenomenon.
    The Saami have the reputation of the relict, some kind «reserve» of the ancient genes of Europe (and the bearers of the considerable pre-Uralic
    language substrate) ... The population of the Saami within Kola Peninsula contains about 14% of haplogroup J2b
    (17)...
    we can conclude that the presence of haplotype R1a1 is strongly probable in the cultures of Comb Stamp Ware (with J2b bearers as well) in the Neolithic context ..."


    FWIW,
    The Narasimhan-Reich data had no J2b in either BMAC or Swat Valley.

    Modern distribution:
    (a) J2a-M410 and (b) J2b-M102.
    I really don't think J2b has anything to do with anything in this case, considering its 1600 AD Baltic. There were plenty of other Y HG a mere 400 years ago in the region. It's certainly a red herring.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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